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William Cohen on Prisoner Abuse Scandal
Aired May 11, 2004 - 13:08 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DALJIT DHALIWAL, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, let's get some more perspective about the abuse scandal, and we're joined by William Cohen, former U.S. defense secretary. Secretary Cohen is with us every week, and he joins - he now heads up the Cohen Group, an international business consulting firm.
Good to see you again.
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Good to see you again, Daljit.
DHALIWAL: Your thoughts, just really on the testimony. What did you make of it?
COHEN: Well, I thought the general was extraordinarily forthright. He has a reputation, based on his own report, that he is completely thorough, candid, honest and has high credibility with the members. And so I think that his presentation was well received today. There will be questions raised by virtue of the disagreement, I think, between him and Mr. Cambone in terms of who ultimately was responsible, the military police or the military intelligence personnel. That is yet to be resolved.
And then, of course, we have the issue of whether or not there were any instructions, and there clearly there's going to be - further inquiry will be necessary to resolve that.
DHALIWAL: Did you buy that, that this was a group of soldiers, six, perhaps seven, who were acting on their own, perhaps being egged on by military intelligence, but there was absolutely no policy.
COHEN: It's hard to believe that there was such inadequate supervision that these individuals, small as they may have been, could indulge in this kind of behavior without anyone at the higher chain of command understanding what was going on or seeking to discipline those individuals long before this has occurred.
So, even though it may have been a small group - we don't know this yet. There may have been no instructions written or oral to them to quote, "loosen up," the detainees. Nonetheless, I think members of the center are going to want to probe that thoroughly, to see whether some kind of signal was sent that these individuals should be treated in a less than humane fashion.
That conduct, whether they were instructed in the art and science of the Geneva Convention or not, or whether they were familiar with any kind of training, it seems to me pretty fundamental that this kind of conduct went well beyond the bounds of any acceptable notions of behavior.
DHALIWAL: Well, that's what I wanted to ask you. You're a military man, and we're hearing that there was no supervision, that there was no discipline, that there was no leadership. How does that equal abuse?
COHEN: Well, I'm a civilian man, but I presided over the military at the Pentagon. The notion, again, that the standards were not adhered to, that there were no instructions given, no training, no supervision, that simply doesn't, I think, ring true to the extent that it is normal practice. Normally, there is training. There are instructions. There is supervision.
So somehow this is some kind of an exception, and the question becomes, why the exception? Why was there so little supervision given to this particular unit, unless there is an understanding on the part of some? And how did they get that understanding?
So I think these questions have to be explored further before the members of the Senate and ultimately the American people will be satisfied and then, of course, the international community, but especially the Iraqi people, to see that this was some kind of a really unique - the exception to the rule that we practice in terms of how we treat prisoners of war.
DHALIWAL: And because, Mr. Cohen, there was a breakdown in the chain of command, and ultimately we don't know who was in charge, who should then bear the brunt of the responsibility here? Does it go all the way up to Donald Rumsfeld, and if it does - I mean, what are your thoughts on whether he should stay in his job, or should he resign? I mean, some are calling for him to step down.
COHEN: Well, first, let me point out that Secretary Rumsfeld has devoted much of his life to public service, and I think that has to be taken into account, that he is truly an individual who is dedicated to serve the country and to try to bring whatever talents he has to the fore in whatever job that he has. And so he has an enormous amount of, I think, reservoir of goodwill to fall back on.
Number one, he has to satisfy the president of the United States. He serves at the pleasure of the president of the United States. And to the extent that the president is still satisfied and pleased with his service, then that obviously will count heavily.
Secondly, he must satisfy himself that he can continue to serve effectively in that position. That means having the respect of his civilian counterparts, as well as the military that serves under him. And then, ultimately, cooperating and having the confidence of the members of Congress, and ultimately the country.
So a lot of questions to be asked and answered. I think that at this point, any discussion of his resignation is certainly premature, and it's important that it not be seen - or he be seen as trying to respond or being forced to respond to partisan pressure. I think under those circumstances, he certainly would not be willing to entertain any such notion of that level of accountability, so ...
DHALIWAL: All right. We're also hearing that there are hundreds more pictures, also videos. Should the Pentagon release them, just very quickly?
COHEN: I think they should be released immediately. It is clear that whatever pictures there are will be released at some time in the future. It's better to get it out fully on the table and to be disposed of now, rather than later.
DHALIWAL: All right. Thanks very much, Mr. Cohen.
END
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Aired May 11, 2004 - 13:08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DALJIT DHALIWAL, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, let's get some more perspective about the abuse scandal, and we're joined by William Cohen, former U.S. defense secretary. Secretary Cohen is with us every week, and he joins - he now heads up the Cohen Group, an international business consulting firm.
Good to see you again.
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Good to see you again, Daljit.
DHALIWAL: Your thoughts, just really on the testimony. What did you make of it?
COHEN: Well, I thought the general was extraordinarily forthright. He has a reputation, based on his own report, that he is completely thorough, candid, honest and has high credibility with the members. And so I think that his presentation was well received today. There will be questions raised by virtue of the disagreement, I think, between him and Mr. Cambone in terms of who ultimately was responsible, the military police or the military intelligence personnel. That is yet to be resolved.
And then, of course, we have the issue of whether or not there were any instructions, and there clearly there's going to be - further inquiry will be necessary to resolve that.
DHALIWAL: Did you buy that, that this was a group of soldiers, six, perhaps seven, who were acting on their own, perhaps being egged on by military intelligence, but there was absolutely no policy.
COHEN: It's hard to believe that there was such inadequate supervision that these individuals, small as they may have been, could indulge in this kind of behavior without anyone at the higher chain of command understanding what was going on or seeking to discipline those individuals long before this has occurred.
So, even though it may have been a small group - we don't know this yet. There may have been no instructions written or oral to them to quote, "loosen up," the detainees. Nonetheless, I think members of the center are going to want to probe that thoroughly, to see whether some kind of signal was sent that these individuals should be treated in a less than humane fashion.
That conduct, whether they were instructed in the art and science of the Geneva Convention or not, or whether they were familiar with any kind of training, it seems to me pretty fundamental that this kind of conduct went well beyond the bounds of any acceptable notions of behavior.
DHALIWAL: Well, that's what I wanted to ask you. You're a military man, and we're hearing that there was no supervision, that there was no discipline, that there was no leadership. How does that equal abuse?
COHEN: Well, I'm a civilian man, but I presided over the military at the Pentagon. The notion, again, that the standards were not adhered to, that there were no instructions given, no training, no supervision, that simply doesn't, I think, ring true to the extent that it is normal practice. Normally, there is training. There are instructions. There is supervision.
So somehow this is some kind of an exception, and the question becomes, why the exception? Why was there so little supervision given to this particular unit, unless there is an understanding on the part of some? And how did they get that understanding?
So I think these questions have to be explored further before the members of the Senate and ultimately the American people will be satisfied and then, of course, the international community, but especially the Iraqi people, to see that this was some kind of a really unique - the exception to the rule that we practice in terms of how we treat prisoners of war.
DHALIWAL: And because, Mr. Cohen, there was a breakdown in the chain of command, and ultimately we don't know who was in charge, who should then bear the brunt of the responsibility here? Does it go all the way up to Donald Rumsfeld, and if it does - I mean, what are your thoughts on whether he should stay in his job, or should he resign? I mean, some are calling for him to step down.
COHEN: Well, first, let me point out that Secretary Rumsfeld has devoted much of his life to public service, and I think that has to be taken into account, that he is truly an individual who is dedicated to serve the country and to try to bring whatever talents he has to the fore in whatever job that he has. And so he has an enormous amount of, I think, reservoir of goodwill to fall back on.
Number one, he has to satisfy the president of the United States. He serves at the pleasure of the president of the United States. And to the extent that the president is still satisfied and pleased with his service, then that obviously will count heavily.
Secondly, he must satisfy himself that he can continue to serve effectively in that position. That means having the respect of his civilian counterparts, as well as the military that serves under him. And then, ultimately, cooperating and having the confidence of the members of Congress, and ultimately the country.
So a lot of questions to be asked and answered. I think that at this point, any discussion of his resignation is certainly premature, and it's important that it not be seen - or he be seen as trying to respond or being forced to respond to partisan pressure. I think under those circumstances, he certainly would not be willing to entertain any such notion of that level of accountability, so ...
DHALIWAL: All right. We're also hearing that there are hundreds more pictures, also videos. Should the Pentagon release them, just very quickly?
COHEN: I think they should be released immediately. It is clear that whatever pictures there are will be released at some time in the future. It's better to get it out fully on the table and to be disposed of now, rather than later.
DHALIWAL: All right. Thanks very much, Mr. Cohen.
END
TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
