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Interview with William Cohen

Aired July 01, 2004 - 12:38   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ZAIN VERJEE, CNNi ANCHOR: Joining us for more perspective, one of our regular contributors, former U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen joins us now from Washington.
Secretary Cohen, what did you think when you saw pictures of Saddam in court?

WILLIAM COHEN, FMR. U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, he certainly was slimmer, or some had described as being perhaps more fit having been given the opportunity to have exercise at least twice a day. And no doubt his diet is not that of a five-start restaurant. But he looked reasonably fit. And certainly from a mental point of view, he certainly could not please insanity as a defense because looked very much in command of his arguments, as furious as they might to us.

VERJEE: What about the point that he's going to use opportunities like this as a political platform to call people names, to say what he wants, much as Slobodan Milosevic has done?

COHEN: I think that's going to be inevitable. And I think it will be restrained to some degree. But this should not have the appearance or the reality of kangaroo court where all of the evidence is presented against him and he is not allowed to at least offer some defense; even if it involves some name-calling.

We have something of an "Alice in Wonderland" aspect to this particular situation where we have almost the verdict first and then the trial. I think most people have come to the conclusion that he has been guilty of many of the charges that will be formally lodged against him. And we have to go through a process of laying that out to the international public as well as to the Iraqi people.

And so there is some element of a reversal of the process here.

VERJEE: The defense is building a case suggesting or saying that, look, this isn't a legitimate. The judges aren't legitimate. The invasion of Iraq wasn't legitimate. Saddam is still the president and therefore deserves immunity from prosecutions. What do you think of that and how that should be handled?

COHEN: I think the arguments (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and legitimacy are ones that have to be confronted by the Iraqi people. After all, we have an interim government. And I would suggest that perhaps the trial inevitably will conducted later, perhaps next year; and that it should await the election of officials, the creation of a legislature, the establishment of what the rules are going to be.

I have no idea at this point what the burden of proof is, whether it's beyond a reasonable, whether it's clear and convincing evidence. I think a lot of issues have to be really fully ventilated. And I would think that waiting until next year when there is in fact an elected government in place would be the better course of action.

VERJEE: One of the issues that has been touched on now that will be significant later is the issue of having a witness protection program, witnesses too afraid to show their faces. We didn't see images of even of the others who were in the court there. That's going to become an issue. How do you use the witness protection program in Iraq?

COHEN: Well, I certainly think it can be handled procedurally. There are ways in which witnesses can be screened from the public view so that their identities are not disclosed, their names and addresses; and yet still have a fair proceeding before the tribunal. But that's certainly going to be an issue.

Also it points to the fact that we have to take into account whether or there is instability in Iraq itself, whether the insurgents are still waging war against the interim government and the elected government next, how that may impact upon the trial.

VERJEE: Just one more question, Secretary Cohen, Sudan: Mr. Powell and Annan are there to highlight the catastrophe in Darfur. The Europeans particularly have been surprising silent over this. Why is that and do you think countries like France and Germany and Spain who don't want troops in Iraq should offer up armed intervention in Sudan if it comes to that?

COHEN: We faced a similar situation in dealing with Kosovo in which the European nations were not eager to take the lead in dealing with Milosevic's ethnic cleansing policy and process. I think the same thing is taking place now. I think the Europeans have an obligation to exert every influence they can and bring whatever pressure they can to bear upon the Sudanese government at this point to prevent another Rwanda from taking place.

VERJEE: Former U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen, thank you so much.

COHEN: A pleasure.

END

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Aired July 1, 2004 - 12:38:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNNi ANCHOR: Joining us for more perspective, one of our regular contributors, former U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen joins us now from Washington.
Secretary Cohen, what did you think when you saw pictures of Saddam in court?

WILLIAM COHEN, FMR. U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, he certainly was slimmer, or some had described as being perhaps more fit having been given the opportunity to have exercise at least twice a day. And no doubt his diet is not that of a five-start restaurant. But he looked reasonably fit. And certainly from a mental point of view, he certainly could not please insanity as a defense because looked very much in command of his arguments, as furious as they might to us.

VERJEE: What about the point that he's going to use opportunities like this as a political platform to call people names, to say what he wants, much as Slobodan Milosevic has done?

COHEN: I think that's going to be inevitable. And I think it will be restrained to some degree. But this should not have the appearance or the reality of kangaroo court where all of the evidence is presented against him and he is not allowed to at least offer some defense; even if it involves some name-calling.

We have something of an "Alice in Wonderland" aspect to this particular situation where we have almost the verdict first and then the trial. I think most people have come to the conclusion that he has been guilty of many of the charges that will be formally lodged against him. And we have to go through a process of laying that out to the international public as well as to the Iraqi people.

And so there is some element of a reversal of the process here.

VERJEE: The defense is building a case suggesting or saying that, look, this isn't a legitimate. The judges aren't legitimate. The invasion of Iraq wasn't legitimate. Saddam is still the president and therefore deserves immunity from prosecutions. What do you think of that and how that should be handled?

COHEN: I think the arguments (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and legitimacy are ones that have to be confronted by the Iraqi people. After all, we have an interim government. And I would suggest that perhaps the trial inevitably will conducted later, perhaps next year; and that it should await the election of officials, the creation of a legislature, the establishment of what the rules are going to be.

I have no idea at this point what the burden of proof is, whether it's beyond a reasonable, whether it's clear and convincing evidence. I think a lot of issues have to be really fully ventilated. And I would think that waiting until next year when there is in fact an elected government in place would be the better course of action.

VERJEE: One of the issues that has been touched on now that will be significant later is the issue of having a witness protection program, witnesses too afraid to show their faces. We didn't see images of even of the others who were in the court there. That's going to become an issue. How do you use the witness protection program in Iraq?

COHEN: Well, I certainly think it can be handled procedurally. There are ways in which witnesses can be screened from the public view so that their identities are not disclosed, their names and addresses; and yet still have a fair proceeding before the tribunal. But that's certainly going to be an issue.

Also it points to the fact that we have to take into account whether or there is instability in Iraq itself, whether the insurgents are still waging war against the interim government and the elected government next, how that may impact upon the trial.

VERJEE: Just one more question, Secretary Cohen, Sudan: Mr. Powell and Annan are there to highlight the catastrophe in Darfur. The Europeans particularly have been surprising silent over this. Why is that and do you think countries like France and Germany and Spain who don't want troops in Iraq should offer up armed intervention in Sudan if it comes to that?

COHEN: We faced a similar situation in dealing with Kosovo in which the European nations were not eager to take the lead in dealing with Milosevic's ethnic cleansing policy and process. I think the same thing is taking place now. I think the Europeans have an obligation to exert every influence they can and bring whatever pressure they can to bear upon the Sudanese government at this point to prevent another Rwanda from taking place.

VERJEE: Former U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen, thank you so much.

COHEN: A pleasure.

END

TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com