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Pakistan Clamps Down on Religious Schools; Israeli Police & Troops Arrayed Against Gaza Settler Protests

Aired July 20, 2005 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Center, this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: The crackdown against banned jihadi and extremist groups in Pakistan leads to protests on the street of Islamabad.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: In Leeds, the hometown of three London bombing suspects, new questions about the role of the mosque. Paula Hancocks takes a closer look.

: And the debate about President Bush's first nominee to the U.S. Supreme Court. Is Judge John Roberts too conservative? What are his prospects? Noon right now in Washington, on the East Coast of the United States, 5:00 p.m. in Leeds, England. Hello, I'm Michael Holmes.

VERJEE: And 'm Zain Verjee. Welcome to our viewers throughout the world. This is YOUR WORLD TODAY on CNN International.

HOMES: Under international pressure after the London terror attacks, Pakistan is cracking down on banned extremist groups, as well as religious schools.

VERJEE: Pakistani officials say more than 200 people were arrested in raids across the country. Hundreds of students rallied in the capital Islamabad to denounce the arrest. Three of the four London bombers were British nationals of Pakistani descent. At least two recently visited the country.

HOMES: the raids were ordered by the Pakistan president, General Pervez Musharraf, who plans to address the nation on Thursday. Meanwhile, the British prime minister, Tony Blair, says he has recently spoken with the Pakistani president about clamping down on the religious schools.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: There is a real desire and willingness on the part of the Pakistani government to deal with those madrassas that are preaching this type of extremism. And I think we all know that the roots of this go very, very deep and they're not always to be found in our own country, but to be found in other countries as well. And we're also looking at the possibility of holding a conference which will bring together some of the main countries who are (INAUDIBLE) concerned and who have been closely involved in these issues, in order to try to take concerted action right across the world to try and root out this type of extremist teaching.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOMLES: John Irvine has more now on the religious schools, or madrassas that many see as breeding grounds for terrorism.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN IRVINE, ITV NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These specially-trained police officers will be the cutting edge of President Musharraf's promised crackdown on extremism here in Lahore and elsewhere. Security chiefs have been talking about going on the offensive. But any raids carried out on the worst madrassas could lead to serious friction.

Lahore's top policeman says that soon there will be developments in the London bombings investigation. There have been more arrests across the Punjab and useful information appears to be coming from those already in custody.

TARIQ SALEEM, LAHORE POLICE CHIEF: It's (INAUDIBLE) but they have been subjected to intense interrogation and we will let you know.

IRVINE: Under international pressure to respond to the London atrocities, Pakistani authorities have checked up steps at Karachi International Airport, the point of entry for the London bombers who visited this country late last year. Where they spent their time isn't clear. But it's thought that like many other young Britons of Pakistani origin, they attended a madrassa.

For them, of course, it wasn't purely a religious experience and others who have come here can't believe what the men from Leeds were capable of.

ABDUS SAMAD, BRITISH STUDENT: First of all, I didn't first believe it, that (INAUDIBLE) a Muslim can do these kinds of thing. I sat in the Internet cafe and I saw the news that these people. It's still hard to believe that is it these people or not who bombed it? It might be a conspiracy or something, I don't know, but if it is, it's very shameful.

IRVINE (on camera): In the aftermath of the London bombings, the police here in Lahore have been concentrating on just 10 or so of the city's 300 madrassas. Those 10 are seen as the most hard-line hotbeds of fanaticism and the authorities are worried that they have become not just a law unto themselves but an embarrassment to Pakistan.

(voice-over): But by instigating a crackdown, President Musharraf risks being seen as doing the West's bidding.

John Irvine, ITV News, Lahore.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: More on Pakistan and its religious schools a little later this hour. We're going to be speaking to Husain Haqqani, author of "Pakistan: Between Mosque & Military" -- Zain.

VERJEE: Michael, meanwhile, the British government unveiled new security measures in response to the London bombings amid concerns that civil liberties will be eroded. In a briefing before parliament members, Home Secretary Charles Clarke outlined three major proposals. Acts considered preparatory to terrorism will be considered an offense, that would enable security authorities to convene at an earlier stage to protect the public. Another new provision would be make the indirect incitement of terrorism an offense, thus designed to catch those who preach hatred. Finally, there would be a widening of the definition of giving and receiving of terrorist training. He also outlined plans to deport or prevent anyone from coming into Britain, anyone who foments terror.

HOLMES: Two of the four London bombers, you remember, traveled to Pakistan last year. That country the home of a number of radical Muslim schools that can and often do influence Muslim young men.

As our Nic Robertson now reports, there is a much easier way that anyone intent on doing harm can get the inspiration and the knowledge to carry out their deadly plans.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Internet images like these, of Saudi warriors announcing their intent to kill, may well have helped transform the four London bombers from sports-loving young Muslims into killers.

MARC SAGEMAN, FORMER CIA OFFICER: There really is no need of a mastermind because all the guidance and all the strategy and tactics are already on the Internet and those people can download what's already on the Internet.

ROBERTSON: Investigators will be looking for that kind of material on the computers that were among the first items seized at the Hamara Community Center in Leeds. That's where three of the four men in the terror cell are known to have met. Mohammad Saddiq Khan, the oldest, is believed to have befriended sports-loving Shahzad Tanweer and Hassib Hussain by having them join him in weight-training classes.

But what happened to transform them into bombers?

SAGEMAN: The three of them, that core group, the one of Pakistani descent, came together over a period of about a year-and-a- half and seemed to have mutually escalated their devotion to Islam.

ROBERTSON: At the time, videos of jihadists fighting in Bosnia and Chechnya were circulating in that close-knit Muslim community, along with manuals on the Internet on how to carry out attacks.

LORD AHMED, BRITISH PARLIAMENT MEMBER: There's been an identity crisis within these young people who have been looking out for the answers. ROBERTSON: Lord Ahmed of Rotherham and other British Muslim leaders are under pressure from the prime minister to silence extremist Muslim clerics, whom the British government says radicalize Muslim youth.

AHMED: These young people have been involved with some violent ideology, political ideology, which has been taught either in this country or abroad.

ROBERTSON: Khan and Tanweer went to Pakistan last year and British investigators want to know more about who they met and what they did. But Sageman suggests the bombers may already have been committed to terror before they ever went there.

SAGEMAN: Those people motivate each other. They don't really need to go to Pakistan or to any training camp.

ROBERTSON (on camera): British investigators are still far from drawing their own conclusions. But the prospect a terror cell could create, educate and radicalize itself without ever leaving home, compounds concerns that just weeks before the bombing, the country's terror threat level was lowered.

Nic Robertson, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: A suicide bomber again targets would-be army recruits in the Iraqi capital. At least eight people were killed and 28 wounded in the attack. The same recruitment center was bombed just over a week ago with 25 people killed. Four Sunni Arabs have suspended their work with the committee drafting Iraq's new constitution. The move was in response to Tuesday's killing of two fellow Sunni committee members.

Meanwhile, the Iraqi government led three minutes of silence to remember the victims of two large-scale attacks last week. More than 90 people were killed in a suicide bombing in Musayyib on Saturday. Days earlier, an attacker killed nearly 30 people, mostly children, in Baghdad.

HOLMES: Although some weary protesters are packing up and heading home, determined opponents of Israel's disengagement plan say they will march on to Gaza. Police and soldiers, however, are trying to stop that trek in its tracks. John Vause joins us now from Kfar Maimon in Israel with more.

John, there has been some movement, but nobody has gone anywhere yet.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're hearing from the people inside Kfar Maimon right now, Michael, in fact, they're holding a meeting, that this march could begin at any minute. We're also hearing it may wait for another 30 minutes, also, in fact, that they may in fact try to do this march at night, to try to confuse the security forces who have gathered here. Nonetheless, the police and the soldiers are ready. We take a closer look at the gate, this is the main gate to Kfar Maimon. Now, of course, yesterday here there were some clashes here with the police. A number of policemen were wounded. Three were wounded and more than a dozen people were arrested. You can see the sea of blue shirts here, they're being supported by the Israeli soldiers. And all the time here more and more reinforcements are being brought in.

Now along the fence around Kfar Maimon they've deployed soldiers and police. In some places they are three or four deep. Now earlier today the protesters inside were also on the other side of the fence. They were talking to the soldiers. They were telling them that we love you, you're our brothers, let us march to Gaza, join our march to the Gaza. Now soldiers responded to that by laying razor wire between them and the protesters inside. We also know that police have called for vehicles to take people away after they've been arrested. Also, not far from here, two water cannons are also on standby. They've used those water cannons before during protests in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

So what we're waiting for now, Michael, is for the protesters inside who say that they will go on with this march. And the police, who are now saying that they will stop them -- Michael.

HOLMES: John, what's at the core of this protest? One assumes that some are going to be verbally protesting. But there is a radical element there, is there not?

VAUSE: Both the police and organizers inside are concerned about this hard-line group of protesters who seem determined to clash with police. We've seen it here in Israel over last couple of weeks, as the disengagement draws closer. There have been clashes between mostly young Jewish teenagers and the Israeli police and the soldiers. And that is the concern. Both the police and the protest organizers say they are determined to try to and avoid any kind of violent confrontation.

Now what we've learned from the organizers of this march, what they're going to try to do is march in one disciplined group. Now when they come up to the police or the soldiers, they say they will stop and they will change direction. They'll go left. They'll go right. They'll retreat. And they'll keep probing those defensive lines to try and find some kind of weakness to continue on with their march to Gaza.

Now right now, though, there's more than 20,000 soldiers and police who are here to stop them -- Michael.

HOLMES: All right. John Vause there, on the spot. We'll check in with you, John, if there are any developments, thanks.

Don't got away, still ahead, are Muslim schools in Pakistan breeding grounds for terrorists?

VERJEE: Just ahead, we're going to take a look at madrassas from a different perspective. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOMES: And welcome back, everyone. You're watching an hour of world news on CNN International. It's YOUR WORLD TODAY.

Well, the former British leader of a militant Islamic group says the British government has only itself to blame for the London bombings. Anjem Choudary talked with CNN about the way many Muslims see Prime Minister Tony Blair and his policies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANJEM CHOUDARY, FORMER HEAD, AL-MUHAJIROUN: If you're a practicing Muslim, then you don't sit with tyrants like Tony Blair who have the blood of Muslims on his hand. The fact is that he is surrounded by lackeys, by handpicked so-called representatives of the Muslim community who will do his bidding. Talk to the ordinary Muslim in the street, talk to the ordinary Muslim in Pakistan or in Indonesia or anywhere else in the world, and you'll find that there's a lot of support for the jihad -- the general jihad, which is taking place to liberate Muslim land, to support their fellow brothers and sisters around the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Well, as we've said, Pakistan's religious schools, or madrassas, have become the focus of much attention. Many see these schools as breeding grounds for terrorism. But others defend the schools, saying they play an important role in the society. Here's Zain.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE (voice-over): It's call called a madrassa, Arabic for school. In some respects they can be comparable to parochial schools for Catholics or yeshivas for Jews. Students of all ages memorize their holy book, the Koran, and learn Islamic law. Some teach madrassas teach philosophy, math, geography. Other madrassas have a different agenda.

Not here, say these students from Britain and the U.S. They're studying at this madrassa in Karachi. They say the attacks in London were un-Islamic.

SAMAD: Very, very shameful acts, a disgrace.

FARHAN MUGHAL, PAKISTANI-AMERICAN STUDENT: Islam does not teach this, killing Muslims and ladies and men and children. They also have a heart, I don't know how these people do this.

VERJEE: Pakistan estimates it has about 10,000 madrassas and more than a million students attend. Madrassas have emerged where mainstream education is weak. So the religious establishment stepped up to take up the role of education.

Many madrassas that sprouted in the 1980s became recruiting ground for jihadis to fight the Soviet occupation in Afghanistan. Today there is alarm, particularly in the West, that madrassas are indoctrinating students with extremist views and that the religious schools are nothing more than a front for local jihadi groups.

Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, has tried to reform madrassas and on Monday acknowledged some breed extremism. Afzah Shaikh is a foreign student at this madrassa and says he's no radical.

AFZAH SHAIKH, STUDENT: I've been studying here. I would never learn to do something like this. I think of it as something really just disgusting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: Pakistan says it's actively cracking down on Muslim extremists. But critics say the country has yet to acknowledge the ideology of hatred that has been cultivated there for decades, critics like Husain Haqqani, his is a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He's also the author of "Pakistan: Between Mosque & Military."

Thanks for joining us. Are madrassas in Pakistan a breeding ground for terrorists?

HUSAIN HAQQANI, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: Madrassas have existed for centuries. And Pakistan has had madrassas since its inception. If the madrassa per se was a breeding ground for terrorists, then Pakistan would have had terrorists many years earlier. I think madrassas teach people to be conservative, orthodox, or medieval. Only a handful of them teach them to be radical. I think the real source of militarism in Pakistan comes from the state's ideology of trying to blame the rest of the world for Pakistan's problems and for trying to remain in power without allowing the people to elect their own representatives.

VERJEE: What are some of the things the more radical madrassas actually teach if someone goes there as a student, how do they get brainwashed?

HAQQANI: Then, the madrassa, of course, has a curriculum and a system of education that is very old and therefore it does not take into account the modern concept of different ideas interacting with each other. In some madrassas, for example, people are just drilled with ideas that have been handed down from the earlier scholars of Islam. And in that sense, all madrassas teach a very, very conservative, medieval, and anti-Western world view.

The radical madrassas teach people not only to shun the West, they also teach them to hate the West. And that is where the problem is coming from.

VERJEE: Why are they able to operate, those -- the handful that preach hatred?

HAQQANI: The Pakistani authorities for years used the few radical madrassas as recruiting and training centers for mujahadeen or holy warriors that the Pakistani state was supporting, fighting against the Soviets in Afghanistan, later on, fighting for Pakistani influence in Afghanistan, and also for getting Kashmir from India. And that has been the reason why they have been tolerated.

The kind of crackdowns we are talking about in the media today have been spoken of for the last several decades. For the last two decades, Pakistani government, whenever a problem occurs like 9/11, like July 7th, the authorities always go around, arrest 200, 300, 400 people, and that's...

VERJEE: So are you saying that those actions are essentially meaningless?

HAQQANI: Zain, I think that those actions have been taken before and they have not solved the problem. I think the problem needs to be tackled at the root and not just by shedding a few more leaves and branches.

VERJEE: What's at risk for Pervez Musharraf politically?

HAQQANI: General Pervez Musharraf, of course, has been juggling both sides. On the one hand, he doesn't want to give up the long- standing relationship between Islamism and militarism in Pakistan, wants to remain in power while wearing a military uniform, instead of basing his government on the consent of the people. And on the other hand, he wants to appease the West, which is his financial and economic and military backer.

And I think in that juggling act, at some point he will come to grief personally and certainly Pakistan is not doing very well as a result of that juggling act.

VERJEE: You know there are a lot of links between Muslims in the West who go to Pakistan, to madrassas, to go for religious education. Should people be worried then that students going to Pakistan are going to be indoctrinated?

HAQQANI: Zain, I went to a madrassa in the 1960s. My teacher didn't like the idea of me learning English. He didn't want me to wear Western clothes. But he certainly didn't want me to blow myself up as a suicide terrorist. I think the average madrassa in Pakistan teaches people to be very conservative and orthodox, but does not teach them to blow themselves up.

It is a minority of said institutions and that minority can be tackled if the government decides to do that. Why it does not do is a question you should ask General Musharraf when you interview him next.

VERJEE: We will. Husain Haqqani, a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, also the author of "Pakistan: Between Mosque & Military." In Washington, Husain, thank you.

HAQQANI: A pleasure.

HOLMES: All right. Why don't we take a look now at some of the other stories that are making news in the United States. President George W. Bush is lobbying Congress to renew parts of the Patriot Act that are set to expire. In an address in Baltimore, Maryland, Mr. Bush said the controversial measure is vital in the fight against terrorism. Critics say it tramples on society's civil liberties.

Coffee talk at the White House. President Bush met with his Supreme Court nominee, Judge John Roberts, over coffee on Wednesday. Roberts is now meeting with political leaders on Capitol Hill. If he is confirmed by the Senate, Roberts will replace the retiring justice, Sandra Day O'Connor.

Southern Texas feeling the effects of Hurricane Emily, which made landfall near San Fernando, Mexico, as a Category 3 storm. The National Hurricane Center says the eye of the storm passed over south of Brownsville, Texas. The city there, as you can see, experiencing some heavy rains and high winds.

VERJEE: A last-minute bid for Unocal could put China out of the running for the U.S. oil company.

HOLMES: That's still to come. We're going to tell you which company the Unocal board wants to win in the takeover tug-of-war.

VERJEE: Plus, takeover talk in the Pepsi's boardroom, which company Pepsi is eyeing when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MARKET REPORT)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

HOLMES: We're going to have a round-up of the main stories in just a moment. Stick around for that.

VERJEE: And then the Supreme nominee. We're going to debate the merits of President Bush's choice for the U.S. High Court.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VERJEE: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY on CNN International. I'm Michael Holmes

And I'm Zain Verjee. Here are some of the top stories we're following. A suicide bomber has killed at least eight people and an Iraqi at an army -- at an Iraqi army recruiting center in Baghdad. Excuse me. The center was targeted in a similar attack just over a week ago.

Mixed news, meanwhile, for the panel drafting Iraq's new constitution. The chairman says it will be ready by an August deadline, but four Sunni Arabs have suspended their work after the killing of two Sunni colleagues.

HOLMES: In Pakistan, officials have arrested more than 200 people in raids right across the country. It's part of a crackdown on extremist groups and Islamic religious schools with suspected militant links. Hundreds of students rallied in the capital, Islamabad, to denounce the arrests. The raids were ordered by the Pakistan president, General Pervez Musharraf.

VERJEE: The British government's considering proposals to toughen anti-terror laws, to minimize the chance of another attack. Home Secretary Charles Clarke laid out three areas under consideration, dealing with incitement of terrorism, training for terrorism and preparatory terrorist acts. Some lawmakers worry the proposals will undermine civil liberties.

HOLMES: Let's go back now to the nomination of Judge John Roberts to the U.S. Supreme Court. Abortion rights advocates and liberal politics fear the landmark Roe versus Wade decision, which legalized abortion, will be overturned. Now, if approved to the court, Roberts would replace Sandra O'Connor, considered the swing vote on the High Court.

Now Candy Crowley takes a closer look now at right to life issues facing the court and of also Roberts' record.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Despite the pre- nomination hype and hoopla, and no matter what you heard, Roe v. Wade is not on the Supreme Court docket this fall. Ayotte v. Planned Parenthood is, a New Hampshire case dealing with parental notification when a minor plans an abortion.

The right to die is not on the Supreme Court docket this fall. But Gonzales v. Oregon is, a case involving Oregon doctors assisting suicides with federally controlled drugs.

Both cases move around the edges of the most heated issues of our time -- life and death, the right to an abortion, the right to die.

Should John Roberts be confirmed, both cases will be watched for what they signal about him and what they bode for the country. Certainly, Roberts is not what liberals had hoped for. They set Sandra Day O'Connor as the bar, a moderate whose vote was pivotal in an otherwise evenly divided court. Friends indicate Roberts is a conservative. His contributions indicate he's Republican, but there is little in his two years on the D.C. Court of Appeals that hints at how he would vote on either the Oregon or New Hampshire case.

The paper trail is bits of confetti. A brief Roberts co-authored while serving as deputy solicitor general. "We continue to believe," it reads, "that Roe was wrongly decided and should be overruled." During his confirmation for the D.C. Court of Appeals, Roberts explained those words were that of a lawyer advocating for his client. As for his own position, Roberts said, Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the land. There's nothing in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that precedent."

Interesting, but not definitive. As an appellate court judge, Roberts' job is to uphold law. The Supreme Court can reconsider law. Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: All right. Joining us now to talk about the Roberts' nomination to the highest court in the land, Julian Epstein, the former Democratic counsel to the House Judiciary Committee. Also in Washington, Barbara Comstock, the former spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Justice.

Barbara, let's start with you. What do you think are going to be the issues going to be raised by Democrats, and now are they going to have a leg to stand on?

BARBARA COMSTOCK, FMR. JUSTICE DEPT. SPOKESWOMAN: I think you've already seen really universal acclaim of Judge Roberts, because this is somebody who has a stellar record, one of the most seasoned litigators before the Supreme court, having argued 39 cases, won 25 of them. He's had a diversity of client, been an advocate, you know, for many different issue. And he's highest -- summa cum laude from Harvard Law School, you know, Harvard College and Law School. And he's just somebody who -- everybody who's worked with him recognizes how stellar he is.

And I think he's somebody -- you've heard people say Justice Sandra Day O'Connor is somebody -- you know, Leahy and Senator Kennedy this morning were saying you need to look at Sandra Day O'Connor. And Sandra Day O'Connor was somebody who looked at the cases and the facts and that's exactly what John Roberts did.

HOLMES: Julian, do you agree with that or is this a compromised candidate? Your thoughts?

JULIAN EPSTEIN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I'm in a bit of a box here, because I've been saying on television for the last couple weeks that I think of all of the potential selections the president could make, John Roberts is probably the best. He is certainly a brilliant choice politically by this president. He is clearly in the tradition, in the conservative tradition of a, say, Felix Frankfurter, in the sense that he believes in judicial restraint.

I think the real question is not on his temperament. I think his -- because his temperament is exactly what you want in a Supreme Court justice. I think it's not on whether or not he will actually get confirmed. I think he probably will get confirmed.

I think the real question is whether or not he is going to step up to plate in the confirmation hearings and do what Justice Scalia suggested a nominee should do, which is answer general questions about what they believe about the major issue of the day.

He said in the brief, as Candy pointed out in the set-up piece -- and he was working for government, so this may not be his particular point of view at the time -- he said that he believes Roe versus Wade should be overturned. Now the question is, does he actually subscribe to that or was he doing that on behalf of the Bush administration? The conservative movement believes that affirmative action, the civil rights loss, to the extent that they involve affirmative action, ought to be overturned. Does he believe that?

I think there's an number of major social issues where I actually think the conservatives have a position that's unpopular publicly. And the question is whether he will stand up and say, this is my general view of about these issues of individual rights, or will he hide behind this kind of old game that a lot of nominees play, which is I don't want to talk about that, because it could involve some future case. And that's not valid.

HOLMES: Barbara Comstock -- let's bring Barbara back in the mix now. Barbara, Roe versus Wade, the abortion law, it's obviously a crucial issue. How's he likely to fall on that?

COMSTOCK: Well, I'm sorry, I couldn't hear the audio when Julian was speaking.

HOLMES: My apologies. I just heard that, too. It wasn't deliberate, I'm sure.

COMSTOCK: Sure. In addressing that issue, this is not -- this is the Supreme Court. I think Jeff Greenfield on CNN last night said this is not the abortion court; it's the Supreme Court. This is an issue Sandra Day O'Connor said in 1981 frequently comes up in front of the court, and that is why she did not issue particular questions about that, nor did Justice Ginsburg when she was before the court.

And I should point out, Senator Kennedy, when he introduced Thurgood Marshall, who was the first African-American on the Supreme Court, he made the point to say he should not be asked these particular kinds of questions. And he -- you know that was not something that he had to answer. So you have a long precedent of people not -- because it needs to be an independent judiciary. This is not another legislature; this is an independent judiciary.

HOLMES: But it's political judiciary, though, too, Barbara, isn't it...

COMSTOCK: No, actually it shouldn't be...

HOLMES: It shouldn't be, but it is.

COMSTOCK: Well, the point here, that the president is making, you want to enforce the law, and when Congress passes laws, they look at that and they look to the Constitution to find out what the law should be. And when you go before a court, you want to have people who are looking at this independently and not be swayed by whatever the political winds might be. You want to have them look into the law, the U.S. law, not the international law.

EPSTEIN: I just think that begs the question...

COMSTOCK: Look at the recent case on property rights, which was very closely decided against property owners. This is something that people are very upset about, because it really went against what the Constitution was. And as Sandra Day O'Connor pointed out in her dissent, this is one of the most dangerous cases that you've ever seen from the Supreme Court so that may come up again, too, and you want to have an independent...

HOLMES: Let's give Julian a word here.

EPSTEIN: Well, again, I think this was a brilliant choice on the part of the president, but again, I think what Barbara's arguing here begs the question. It is true that if Judge Roberts were asked in the confirmation hearing about his particular view on a case it would be improper for him to comment. It is not improper -- and Justice Scalia has all but said this, in fact, said this in the year 2002 -- it would not be a problematic for him to say, if he believes it, that a woman's right to choose is not found in the Constitution and Roe V. Wade should be overturned. It's not improper for him to be asked, or to answer the question, does he believe in health and life exception for late-term abortions that needed to preserve either their health or the life of the mother? It's not at all improper for him to get into those kinds of questions.

And the real question is, will the conservatives -- will he step up at the confirmation hearing and address those? And then I think the American Republicans say, well, wow, we don't like the notion, or we do like the notion of a conservative president moving the social agenda of this country in a particular direction in a stark way. And that's a debate that should happen in a political context. But I think that Judge Roberts certainly has plenty of opportunity to say what his points of views are on these very, very important social issues.

HOLMES: OK, we could go on. We cannot. I want to thank you both for your time. Julian Epstein, former Democratic counsel to the House Judiciary Committee.

Also in Washington, Barbara, thanks for coming in. Barbara Comstock, former spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Justice.

COMSTOCK: Thank you.

EPSTEIN: Thanks for having us.

HOLMES: Thanks for having us.

VERJEE: The British government says three of its soldiers have been charged with war crimes for allegedly abusing Iraqi detainees. The charges stem from a death of Vaha Musa (ph) in late 2003. Musa's family says his body showed signs of vicious beatings.

Thousands upon thousands of Iraqi families know that grief of losing a loved one in the crossfire at the hands of military troops and to insurgent attacks.

The number of civilian deaths is hard to come by, but as Aneesh Raman reports, it's staggering, and on the rise.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A rare moment of national pause. Across Iraq, three minutes of silence. At the prime minister's office, and on the streets of Baghdad, three minutes to honor people killed by recent insurgent attacks.

In the past week, the violence has been horrific, even for Iraq, leaving close to 200 dead. The aftermath is all that's seen, defining pictures for the world, everyday life for Iraqis.

Well over two years after the war began, it remains impossible to know the civilian toll. Which is why the report Tuesday from London- based Iraq Body Count is so revealing. According to the group, nearly 25,000 Iraqis were killed between the start of the war and march of this year, even that number is undoubtedly incomplete.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're obviously going to be deaths that are never recorded anywhere or not reported either.

RAMAN: And even those that are reported often remain unidentified, without notice of how they died.

(on camera): Keeping count of casualties in Iraq is incredibly difficult. But one place that sees victims on a daily basis is here at Yarmak (ph) Hospital in Baghdad.

(voice-over): On this day, they are all civilians here, caught between insurgents and security forces.

"My father was driving in his car and the American tanks rolled over him," says Shakir Salman's (ph), son. "We are always exposed to such incidents."

This room is where they track casualties. There are about a dozen hospitals in Baghdad. Yarmak last month alone saw 150 civilian deaths. Elsewhere in the country, such efforts are just starting. Iraq's interior ministry says over 8,000 civilians were killed in the past 10 months. Many say more has to be done to keep count.

MAHMOUD OTHMAN, IRAQI NATL. ASSEMBLY: There hasn't been enough care about it. I think it shouldn't be hard at all, because the people are there.

RAMAN: And for the people here who pause this day like this Hussain Finjohn (ph), a medic, piercing silence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): When I stood there, my body was shivering from grief.

RAMAN: As was the collective conscious of a country that has seen thousands upon thousands of its citizens killed by no fault of their own.

Aneesh Raman, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE) HOLMES: Forest fires are also making headlines in the United States. We want to take a look at that and other stories making news in the U.S. Let's talk about that fire. You can see it there, fast- moving. It's in the state of Arizona, and has led authorities to evacuate 20 houses in the New River area. They say high winds are fanning the flames, making it somewhat difficult to contain, as you'd imagine. The wildfire is one of several burning in the Western state.

A searing heatwave has authorities in Arizona's capital city calling for donations of ice and water. The weather is blamed for a dozen deaths since Saturday in Phoenix. Ten people were left homeless. Ten of those people were homeless. The other two elderly. One police official says he knows of three other deaths that have so far not been included in the heat wave tally.

Actor James Doohan has died. The man who always responded to the phrase "Beam me up, Scotty" on the series "Star Trek" died at home in Washington State on Wednesday. Doohan's agent says he died from pneumonia and also Alzheimer's Disease. He was 85 years old.

(WEATHER REPORT)

VERJEE: Still to come, sports not just for humans.

HOLMES: That's right. They're also for creatures big and small. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Some pachyderms in Germany pack a powerful punch. Watch this move. While football-mad Germans are eagerly awaiting the start of the 2006 World Cup, at stadiums across Germany, some elephants may be stealing the show. They've been practicing their version of football, known as soccer in the U.S., of course, and (INAUDIBLE) in Eastern Germany.

While the huge beasts may have power on their side, their skills need a little work, particularly their team's goalkeeper. Also, while the ball currently is regulation size, the trainer says it might be time to bend the rules, come up with a bigger one for those big feet.

VERJEE: That's very cute. Well, you know, elephants aren't the only animals who enjoy sports from pachyderms. We turn to pooches now. A stretch of sand in western Japan is opened to canine sports enthusiasts. They come in all shapes and all sizes, but they all love to frolic in the sea, wearing special lifejackets. Dog owners are delighted. Dog days don't come cheap, though. The beach charges $9 for each pet.

HOLMES: There you have it. That is CNN International, YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Michael Holmes.

VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee.

HOLMES: See you tomorrow.

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