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Your World Today
Day Two of Forced Evacuations in Gaza
Aired August 18, 2005 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JIM CLANCY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. This is YOUR WORLD TODAY. We are not pausing our coverage of the siege of the settlements now under way in Gaza.
These pictures coming to you live. This is Kfar Darom, where riot police from the Israeli army are laying siege to the last holdouts in the settlement of Kfar Darom, atop a synagogue.
I'm Jim Clancy.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And I'm Zain Verjee.
The attack is really two-pronged here inside and outside. Well- trained Israeli police coming in up through the synagogue, through ladders onto a balcony, and wanting to climb on to the rooftop of the synagogue.
Earlier, we saw scenes of a blue dye being sprayed powerfully in an effort to clear away the protesters barricaded behind barbed wire on the roof. You see some of it there now. John Vause described a strange smell emanating from that. Protesters have been throwing rocks, sand and dirt, and eggs as well, earlier on, on to Israeli security forces.
John Vause joins us now with more. He is on the scene -- John.
CLANCY: All right. It's very noisy there.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: OK. Once again, the water cannon being positioned at the front of the building of the synagogue. They're trying to clear those protesters away.
They are causing a huge amount of problems for the police as they make their way up from the balcony level to the rooftop of the synagogue. They are using whatever they can, these protesters, to stop the advance of the police. The police are using bolt cutters to try and remove that razor wire. It's very, very sharp. Very, very dangerous.
Right now, we also know that those cranes which hoisted up containers to the roof of the building, they delivered or placed on the roof a number of riot police as well. So right now, the settlers, the supporters, the protesters, whatever you want to call them, are now being -- are facing an operation from two levels from the rooftop, and also from below. That water cannon continues to try and move the protesters away. These men have received an ultimatum: leave peacefully, or this would happen. And the police are now moving in, very determined, very slowly, but they are moving in.
And these protesters are being carried out, are being removed from the rooftop. But they are not going quietly. They are fighting back. And this could take a while before this is all over -- Zain.
VERJEE: How many protesters are on the rooftop, do we know?
VAUSE: Well, from where I am standing right now, it looks as though there are just a few dozen, maybe 30, maybe 40 still on the roof. Earlier today we are told there could be as many as 200 inside the synagogue. But as this operation progressed over the last few hours, most of those were carried out peacefully, one at a time.
This is the last group of hard-core protesters left here at Kfar Darom. And the police are moving in from behind them, and also from that balcony level to try and get them off that rooftop, Zain.
It is slow-going. It is difficult work for the police here -- Zain.
VERJEE: And most of these protesters are not from Kfar Darom. They are from the West Bank, and some of them Jerusalem, too, right?
VAUSE: In fact, Zain, it'd be a fair bet to say that the last protesters left on this rooftop, almost none of them are from Kfar Darom. All of them, we are being told, or certainly almost all of them, have come from the West Bank from Israel, the hard-core protesters, the ones who we have seen clash violently with police over the last few weeks, not just in demonstrations in Gaza, but also across the country on highways around Tel Aviv, around Jerusalem.
These are the ones who have blocked roads, who have thrown tacks and sharp objects across the highways, who have burnt tires, who have clashed with police. There were similar protesters who barricaded themselves inside a hotel before this disengagement even began. These are the same protesters from the same areas of the West Bank, the same people who believe that this is the land that God gave them. And they are not going to give it up without a fight -- Zain.
VERJEE: It has been so emotional for the settlers and their supporters, John. What about the Israeli security forces here? They have been the protectors of settlers for years. And now they are the ones charged with removing them forcibly.
VAUSE: Well, Zain, all along, the police and the army have made a very big difference between the settlers, who they say are going through a very difficult time, and the protesters. The settlers, they say, will be dealt with sympathy and sensitivity. The protesters, they say, are now another matter.
And this is the end result of that. They have said to the protesters, "You'll be dealt with decisively." And this is it. This is the end result of that ultimatum to leave peacefully or be carried out and face this kind of action from the police.
VERJEE: Has anyone been...
VAUSE: And right now, this is -- sorry, go ahead, Zain.
VERJEE: Has anyone been injured?
VAUSE: We've seen a couple of people hurt. I saw one -- one of the protesters was carried away on a stretcher a short time ago. And also, one policeman has been hurt, as well.
Not too sure what the situation is on the roof. There is now a mad scramble below by police officers grabbing bottles of water for some reason. And we're not too sure why. It could have something to do with that blue dye which is inside the water being used by the water cannon.
There appears to be some kind of acidic agent. Right now, another protester being carried away by police. This one going quietly.
The rest, on the roof, however, are not. They are putting up a fight, and they are determined not to go. But this is going to end sooner or later -- Zain.
VERJEE: Are police or any army officials or anyone there anticipating or estimating how long this confrontation could last?
VAUSE: What we are hearing from the police is that this will last as long as it lasts. And they will do everything they can to try and end this without bloodshed, without anyone being wounded. But, of course, now the violence has begun.
More protesters being taken away. One struggling there. Another one struggling behind him.
They are being loaded on to buses. They will be taken away to the nearby town of Nesheva (ph).
Another protester struggling, being carried away by eight or nine police officers. And the water cannon, once again, trying to clear away those on the rooftops.
And Zain, it appears if we look at the rooftop here, these police officers who are trying to make their way up through the razor wire are having a very difficult time of it. It looks as if one or two may, in fact, be caught up in the razor wire.
They are trying to remove it. But they are also facing some fierce resistance from the protesters above throwing everything they've got at the police right now to try and stop their advance.
It is slow-going, but it is determined going by the police at this stage -- Zain.
VERJEE: For many of the protesters, John, they want to be pulled out, don't they? They want to be carried out.
VAUSE: Many have been looking for this kind of confrontation. They have wanted to go kicking and screaming. They have wanted to show how opposed they are to this disengagement plan announced by Ariel Sharon in December 2003.
It comes down to a religious belief, Zain. They believe that God gave them this land. They'll do everything they can to stay here, because if they don't, then in many ways they will be defying God's will.
All around this synagogue, dozens and hundreds -- dozens, if not hundreds, of riot police now surrounding this synagogue on all levels. And I can tell you, there is something in the water which they are using from that water cannon.
There is some kind of acidic agent in that water. I can feel it here. I can feel some kind of stinging sensation in my eyes. I can only imagine what's going on up there. There is a definite smell, too.
So that obviously is being used to try and subdue the protesters who are on the roof. If we pan down just on the balcony level, we can see the police have now brought out what looks to be like some kind of office divider, but it is a big piece of wood.
As they try to clear the way, they have managed to clear the way on the left-hand ladder as they make their way up now. They are cutting away the razor wire. This will make their job much easier to get to the rooftop to clear away these protesters.
Already, riot police are on the roof. They were put into place when these cranes hoisted these containers. The riot police were on board the containers. The containers hovered above the rooftop.
They did not stay because the synagogue roof could not handle the weight of those containers. So they dropped the police off, and then they were brought back down. And now they're on the roof.
There are more police moving up from beneath. And as the police come out, many of them are removing their clothing. So something is going on, on top of the roof, with some kind of acidic agent. That is why they have been reaching for the bottles of water.
If we look over here -- over here -- over here -- we can see the police desperately washing something from their hair, from their bodies, pouring water. They're taking their clothes off.
We're not too sure what has happened here. I saw one police officer come out of that synagogue wearing only his boxers.
A policewoman in a great deal of distress here as well. They're pouring water over her. She seems to be in some kind of pain as the bags filled with some kind of chemical, perhaps, come down on the crowd here.
We do not know what is -- what they are using. We do not know how they are trying to stop the police, whatever is going on.
These policemen are coming out one by one in their underwear. Something is going on. They have some kind of chemical agent on -- up there on that rooftop that's causing a great deal of discomfort to the police. They're washing them off with bottles of water to try and get whatever has been poured on and try and get it off.
This is a very bizarre scene here right now -- Zain.
VERJEE: John, the protesters on the roof of the synagogue there throwing whatever they can, pelting security forces with whatever they can. At some point they're going to run out.
VAUSE: Exactly, Zain. They can't keep this up for much longer. Eventually they'll have to come down.
But one thing which is very interesting in all of this is obviously they've been preparing for this. They've been planning for a confrontation. They've had a seemingly endless supply, for example, of paint balls which they've been throwing at buses and at the media and at the army all day long.
Now they have some kind of chemical agent which has caused a great deal of discomfort and pain to the police as they've tried to remove these protesters from the rooftop from this building. So they've obviously been preparing for this moment for quite some time.
This would have to be the most fierce resistance so far that the police and the army have faced since this disengagement began in earnest on midnight, on Tuesday, almost two full days ago -- Zain.
VERJEE: What happens to those protesters that they've managed to drag out?
VAUSE: Well, there was always a plan that the protesters who were here illegally would face the full force of the law. Now, in Neveh Dekalim, I think an offer was made that if they left peacefully, if they decided not to put up a fight, that they wouldn't face any kind of criminal charges.
It will be a very different story here, Zain. Policemen and women have been wounded. They have been hurt. They have been carried away.
So these protesters, who will now face criminal charges and possible jail time, not just for being in the Gaza Strip illegally, but also for resisting arrest, and for assault of a police officer as well in the course of his duty, they will face some jail time, no doubt, when all this is brought to an end in hours or maybe days from now when they all face the courts and criminal charge -- Zain.
CLANCY: John Vause, Jim Clancy. I just want to ask you to stay there. We are going to continue to watch this scene as it plays out.
We welcome our viewers around the world, and in the United States as well. This is a scene that is important for a number of reasons. It's important, as important in Washington, as it is, perhaps, in Tel Aviv. It is the first move by Israel, a voluntary move to back away from a policy of settlements and occupations.
It only effects Gaza and some small parts of the West Bank. But a significant move by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
Israel over the last three decades has poured billions of dollars into settlements, arguing, of course, that it was vital for Israel's security. This year, U.S. taxpayers are going to be asked for an additional $2 billion over the coming four years, not for settlements, but to help accommodate some of the ex-settlers, if you will.
It's important what this means for the roadmap, for President Bush. And just as important is the outcome with that roadmap, the outcome for the Palestinians. Very critical.
Once the Israelis pull out of Gaza, will the Palestinian Authority be able to establish a government, establish law and order here? But today, the focus very much on the scenes that we are looking at right now. That is the pullout itself.
A dramatic day for Israelis, whether they were supporters of the settlers or not. They watched as successive governments sent them -- sent them into the West Bank, sent them into Gaza. And today, the government is ordering, forcing them out -- Zain.
VERJEE: Daniel Ayalon is Israel's ambassador to the United States. He joins us now.
How hard is it for you to watch this?
DANIEL AYALON, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Oh, it's gut- wrenching. It's very hard. It's very sentimental. And I think it gives your viewers worldwide really a chance to firsthand to understand and appreciate the sacrifice for Israel, for all Israelis. And also, I think, to appreciate the great courage of Prime Minister Sharon of taking this very hard decision and implement it.
And these are really historic days for Israel, for the region on its entirety. But sometimes, history's made with pain. And we can certainly see it today.
VERJEE: Will you be able to get everyone out by sundown on Friday?
AYALON: Well, this is goal. And also, I think we can all appreciate the well-disciplined manner and their respectable manner, and the professional manner of the Israeli IDF and security and the soldiers. It's gut-wrenching for them.
I think this is one case in history where both sides of the divide are grieving for the same reason. And there are tears on both sides. There are hard feelings on both sides. Yet, our soldiers are young, brave guys who go there unarmed. The only arms they have is maybe water and paint. And they realize that they have a task to do, and they will do it with compassion, with patience.
As you see, they take them out one by one. But the mission will be complete, hopefully -- hopefully sooner than later. And also, hopefully without any bloodshed.
I think this is also very important. And I expect that this will go at the end without any bloodshed.
VERJEE: A lot of these protesters in Kfar Darom on the rooftop of the synagogue have been able to sneak in past checkpoints. Many of them from the West Bank coming here.
AYALON: Yes, and they are breaching the law, because as of the 15th of August, three days ago, the area was cordoned off. And no Israelis lawfully can go in.
So certainly, we will have to deal with it, because with all the pain and with all the demonstrations -- and as you know, Israel is a very vibrant democracy. And we understand dissension. We understand very vigorous debate.
We even understand action, going to the streets with demonstrations. And -- but the extent is, the tolerable extent is of not breaking the law. And the law will be upheld. And we will deal with them when the time comes.
VERJEE: You called it a historic moment for Israel. Palestinians looking at this say, well, you know, these settlements are illegal under international law. This has been stolen from Gaza. And they say, yes, it's historic, but this is a historic misdeed.
AYALON: Well, I think it would be well advised for the Palestinians not only to show compassion, but also be forward-looking. I don't want to dwell about the past. If I deal with the past, there has never, ever been a Palestinian state in the region.
The land has always been under either Jewish sovereignty, it was Jewish land, it was the presence of Jews throughout the millennia. But let's not dwell on the past, but look forward.
And I think as Israel is doing this great sacrifice and this painful process, we would expect the Palestinians to take responsibility and just make good on not what is just being demanded or expected by the international community, what they have committed to do according to the roadmap. And this is to fight terror, to do away with terror, to dismantle terrorism so there is no potential of terrorism in the future, to change the entire culture of hate and incitement, to preach for coexistence, for peaceful coexistence and with reforms that will hopefully create an authority with one authority with -- one authority with a rule of law and with one (INAUDIBLE). Then we can certainly look into the future, hopefully, with optimism. With all the pain we are under going now, with all the sacrifices we are putting, I think we all in the region deserve a better future. And I hope that time will show that it has all been worthwhile. But now, it's for the Palestinians to show the same kind of responsibility, seriousness, and courage as we move along.
VERJEE: OK. Ambassador Ayalon, we want to take a moment and look at some of these pictures and what is happening in Kfar Darom.
Well-trained Israeli police have been cutting away at barbed wire. They are climbing on to the rooftop where there are protesters that have come in from the West Bank. And some of them in Jerusalem, refusing to leave.
Earlier on, there was a water cannon, a blue dye that was sprayed on these protesters. A crane lifted a container that had riot police with batons on to the rooftop. And this is the scene now on the rooftop above the synagogue in Kfar Darom. One by one, each of these protesters will be dragged away.
Ambassador Ayalon, you talk about the future of Israel, of the Palestinians, and what both sides deserve. The Palestinian economy is crucial in Gaza to the success of disengagement, also. Will Israel allow the Palestinians control of their airports, their air space, the seaport, borders? Because that's critical.
AYALON: Yes. Well, Zain, our goal, our objective, our interests -- and this is important to emphasize -- it's Israel's interest to have Gaza open and free and prosperous. And to the extent possible, we will do everything we need to do.
But in order for Gaza to be open and prosperous, it also has to be secure. And we have to be secure. So this is what we expect the Palestinians to do, to make sure that there is no terror there, not now, and not in the future. They certainly can control the situation.
I would say that as far as Israel's contributions, we have been very, I think, forthcoming...
VERJEE: The Palestinian, though...
AYALON: ... by leaving infrastructures in tact. And there was a very important agreement that was reached with the help of James Wolfensohn, the former president of the World Bank, who is the economic envoy there. And we are leaving them greenhouses with potential 10,000 places of work.
You know, they have large families. So 10,000 people there, jobs, can sustain 100,000. Almost 10 percent of the entire population.
We would like them to succeed. But they have to take matters into their hands to show that they are responsible in good governance, in economic reforms, no corruption. And the international committee stands by to help. There is great... VERJEE: The Palestinian Authority has said, yes, we have to go in and take control; however, Israel has been running the show and controlling these environments for so long that there is no infrastructure for them to set up and operate effectively and efficiently. And they say that that's going to take time.
They also say that this is a ploy by Israel to keep the West Bank, to take off international pressure on Israel so Israel has time to do what it wants. How do you respond to that?
AYALON: Well, I would say, if you see the scenes, what we are undergoing, to claim that we do it for a ploy or for some kind of benefit, short-term benefit, I think this is really not serious. And I think that they should take a very responsible stance here and looking into what they can do. And not look into the others, but look into what they can do.
I think Palestinians have a chance starting next week, next month, to wake up every morning and say, what can we do to help ourselves/ And as I mentioned, Israel stands ready to help. The international community is helping.
There were $9 billion, commitments of G8 countries to help the economy. As we are leaving, we are not leaving behind scorched earth. On the contrary.
There is infrastructure. There are jobs, greenhouses. We leave -- we left them with maps and other facilities that we can help.
We will still be supplying them all their basic needs with electricity and water. And certainly, we would like to work together on joint projects.
VERJEE: Like what?
AYALON: Oh, like industrial zones, building together. But they have a chance now. You know, with all this area that we have left, they have a great chance now to start constructions right away.
Now, constructions with masonry and architects, and wood work, and whatever, can supply thousands, if not more, jobs right away. They have the money to do it. They have the area to do it. They have the facilities.
They can start right away to do it. And that can help them. And as I mentioned, it's our interest to see them prosperous.
We are ready to cooperate. We want to cooperate. In a few months' time, there won't be any presence of Israelis there.
The idea is also to ultimately leave the (INAUDIBLE) road, which is the border with Egypt, with Sinai, where a lot of smuggling still goes on. The idea is to really be out so entire responsibility will be for the Palestinians.
VERJEE: Many Palestinians also asking another question today. Even though they are celebrating that this disengagement is under way, why is it, they've asked, has Israel poured so much money into the settlements, so much money here at such great costs to both sides?
AYALON: Well, we are talking about policies and practices for now decades. I think there was a reason for it. There was a different situation at the time, aside of the ideology and the right.
And I think we have to respect the historic rights of the Jews in this part of the land as well. But we have to be realistic.
And this is the ultimate test for leaders. Not just Israeli leaders, but leaders in the region. And this is to bridge between the, let's say, the national aspirations and historic dreams to realities.
Realities have changed. We understand that there is no future for Jewish presence in Gaza. Demography speaks. We are out.
And -- but it's important, also, at the same time to emphasize that nobody forced us to take this decision. Nobody pushed us out. It was an independent sovereign Israeli decision.
As hard as it is, it was the necessary decision. And at the same time, it gives a great opportunity for a paradigm shift in the area. And as I mentioned before -- I don't want to repeat myself -- we hope that the Palestinian leadership will assume responsibilities and will be very -- it will be very critical for the steps ahead.
VERJEE: Israel's ambassador to the United States, Daniel Ayalon.
Thank you so much for speaking to us and giving us your perspective -- Jim.
CLANCY: Let's go straight back to John Vause, on the -- on the scene.
John, I know that the Israeli army wants to finish this by nightfall. It appears they are on course to do that, doesn't it?
VAUSE: Yes, give or take, Jim. It will be pretty close to that. It appears that the police now have the upper hand.
They've managed to clear away a good deal of the razor wire which was stretched across the rooftop here. They now have men on the roof. The situation has calmed down considerably compared to the last 20 or 30 minutes or so.
They have stopped throwing -- the protesters have stopped throwing whatever they were throwing at the police. They have stopped throwing it. It appears to have some kind of chemical agent in it right now.
We are seeing the protesters being brought down, not from the stairs inside, but they have been loading them on to those container that brought the riot police up in the first place. They have been bringing them down in those containers. They are covered in blue dye which is being shot from the water cannon. I am told by a police officer not far away from me that that is blue dye with turpentine mixed in with the water which is being sprayed by the water cannon.
They are being brought down in the containers one by one. Some still kicking and screaming. They are being loaded into the buses, and then they are taken away.
But there are still, I would say, dozens of protesters left up on that roof. And now they still have that choice, will they continue to resist, or will they realize that this really now is all over -- Jim.
CLANCY: How much of a symbol is Kfar Darom, really, to the rest of the settlers' movement in Gaza?
VAUSE: Yes, Kfar Darom was always one of the more hard-lined settlements. A very religious community. One of the first settlements ever established in the Gaza Strip.
It was -- it was founded in 1970. It was a kibbutz before the 1948 Israel's War of Independence, before that. And that's why we saw those signs, "Kfar Darom will not fall twice," because it was captured by the Egyptians in the War of Independence in '48, rebuilt in 1970.
And this is a hard-line settlement. Very religious. These people are the ones who truly, truly believe that this is their country, God put them here. And they're not going to leave without a fight.
They've given it today to the police. It now, though, appears that it is winding up. The police have the upper hand on the rooftops here. They are removing them one by one. And this is a message, really, to the other settlements out there that may have been contemplating some kind of resistance against the police, some kind of violent struggle, that the police and the army will use a heavy hand against those who resist this evacuation.
It must be said, Jim -- we've said it over and over again in the last few hours -- the people here inside this synagogue in Kfar Darom are not the people who live here. These are the protesters who have managed to get into the Gaza Strip over the last few weeks, even some over the last few months. They are the ones who were digging in. And these are the ones who were looking for some kind of confrontation with the police to try and vent their anger at Ariel Sharon and his decision to evacuate all 21 settlements from the Gaza Strip, and four more from the West Bank -- Jim?
CLANCY: John, half an hour ago, this was a siege with the ladders going up and army troops trying to get up to the rooftop, cut their way through that concertina wire that was strung out all along the rooftop there. What happens when they take them away? Does the battle -- does the fighting stop at that point, when they put them on board the busses? Or does the struggle continue all the way as they're bussed out of the Gaza Strip?
VAUSE: Some of them -- well, most of them, to be fair -- most of them are going quietly. They're being carried by police. One or two are walking. And then they're being put on the buss. And then there are a few who have been screaming from the windows of the busses as they drive away. But right now, it seems, the fight really has gone out of them. They're sitting on the busses. Their fate now awaits them. They will probably face, in all likelihood, criminal charges for this. They were warned that if they confronted the police, if they had violent clashes with the army, they would face jail time.
As opposed to the protesters in Neveh Dekalim, who seemed much younger and made a deal with the police that they would be carried out. And there was minimal violent confrontation in Neveh Dekalim, certainly compared to what's been happening here at Kfar Darom. But now, as these people are bussed away and backed into what is now Israel, these people will face some kind of criminal charges -- Jim.
CLANCY: John, the IDF and the Sharon government have made a strategic decision to allow the press in to witness all of this. Has it paid off, do you think? Will it pay off?
VAUSE: You know, well, we have to wait and see, really. What we're hearing from the Israeli government is one step at a time. We have the disengagement. And then, let's see how that plays out. There's a lot of talk, a lot of intelligence around the track, that once Israel leaves the Gaza Strip that they will, in fact, be a third intifada, that the struggle will move to the West Bank.
Just want to hold that thought for a moment, Jim. I'm hearing from the police that the agent which was thrown on the police officers earlier this evening was, in fact, acid, which is why we saw so many of them running out in a great deal of pain and discomfort, removing their clothes and being doused in water. So, it was acid which was thrown at the police officers, according to some of the police here. That's what they are saying now -- Jim.
CLANCY: That certainly is something that is going to result in some criminal charges for some of those protesters. By and large, though, throughout the day, what we have seen has been has been, I think we could describe it as passive resistance.
VAUSE: Yes. This certainly was not passive. This is what was expected of here, to be honest. The Israeli police and the Israeli army said they put plans into place for this. Certainly, if you look at the numbers of police and soldiers which have surrounded this synagogue, this building. The protesters on the roof would have to be outnumbered 30 or 40 to one, quite easily, maybe even more.
I mean, they were not taking any chances with dealing with these people on the rooftops. There have been injuries. We have seen police hurt. We've all seen a couple of -- also seen a couple of the protesters hurt as well. But this was always going to be a difficult settlement to evacuate. They were ready for this. They knew that this was going to be the case.
Having said that, the police did give the protesters many opportunities to leave without this kind of confrontation. They brought in rabbis, they brought in counselors. They spoke with them. Gideon Meir, the foreign ministry spokesperson, was here. There was advisers from the prime minister's office. The army chief of staff was here. They all tried to deal with the protesters, convincing them that it was better to leave peacefully. They didn't agree. There was confrontation. And now these people are being taken away to face some kind of jail time.
And the Israeli government really now is sending a message to all of those other settlers and their protesters who may be considering some kind of similar protest against the disengagement. They will be dealt with in the exact same decisive manner. And they, too, will probably face the same kind of criminal charges that these protesters will be facing after this confrontation today -- Jim.
CLANCY: Just once again, John, if you can lay out the significance of this move by Israel, how it affects the United States on one hand, and how it's going to effect the perception of Israel in the Arab world.
VAUSE: For Israel, really, in many ways, it's giving it the impression that it's trying to move towards peace, that they are willing to give up Gaza. Ariel Sharon himself said, painful concessions. And here it is. Here these painful concessions are being played out in front of our eyes, live on television. These are the kind of confrontations which Ariel Sharon warned would happen. This is the kind of pain which Israel would endure as it withdrew from the Gaza Strip.
But, you'll hear from the Israeli prime minister down that Israel is willing to make this kind of concession, is willing to go through this kind of national angst and pain for the good of the peace process. Now, what you hear from the Palestinians, of course, this has nothing to do with the peace process. This is all about giving up Gaza. Because, let's face it, the Israelis never really wanted Gaza in the first place. There are 9,000 or so people who lived here, but compare that to the 250,000 settlers who live in the West Bank. It's nothing.
So, from the Palestinian point of view, from the Palestinian point of view -- from the Palestinian point of view, this is all about giving up Gaza, so they can hang on to the West Bank. But at least, at least as far as the United States is concerned, there is some good news to report on, OK -- there at least, though, is some good news to report as far as the Middle East is concerned. And that is that settlements are being dismantled, that land is given back to the Palestinians.
There is something positive to come out of the Middle East. And that is something that will help George Bush and will help Ariel Sharon in the months and years to come, as the Israelis and the Palestinians try to work back towards the road map -- Jim.
CLANCY: Now, we saw there, as you were explaining this to us, people being carried out, yes, but I saw one man coming out on a stretcher. Was that one of the protesters or was that a member of the army?
VAUSE: As far as I can tell, that was one of the protesters coming out on a stretcher. He had the kipper (ph) on, he had the long side locks, which many of these protesters have. Some of the protesters have been hurt in all of this. They have been hurt by what looks like acid, according to the police, which was thrown on the police, and some of it may have come back on them.
There's also been some struggles, as well. Some people have been hurt during those struggles. So there have been a number of injuries here. At this stage, it appears that there is nothing serious. But we're waiting for confirmation on that from the police. We did see one police officer being carried away on a stretcher with an oxygen mask. He didn't look well. We're still waiting to hear from his condition is -- Jim.
CLANCY: All right, John Vause. There, you're looking at a live picture. Kfar Darom, a historic settlement in Gaza, a settlement that the army, the Israeli army, had expected they would have trouble with. You can see the protesters. Most of them not believed to be actual settlers from Kfar Darom, but perhaps from the West Bank or other parts of Israel. Supporters sympathize with the settlers movement, still holding out atop the synagogue. But really, it would appear, as John Vause has told us, the Israeli army has the upper hand.
Octavia Nasr is standing by with us right now. And as this has played out -- and we were talking to John Vause about it, about the significance, you know, for the U.S., for international relations -- but the Arab media watching this with some fascination, too, Octavia.
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN ARAB AFFAIRS EDITOR: Yes, fascination and shock, to a certain extent. Jim, it's very interesting to hear, for example, the Al-Jazeera reporters express real shock, saying this is -- look at these soldiers, they're crying with these settlers. Pointing things out like this. But also, as this goes on and on, it seems that now the Arab media are changing the tone a little bit, and they're starting to look at this as a melodrama more than a drama.
And as you pointed out, as Guy Raz and John Vause pointed out throughout the day, many of these people are believed to be non- Gazans. They are protesters. They are against the idea of disengagement and they came here to protest the government's policy. So basically, Arab media focussing very much on that very point, and drawing -- bringing in guests to say that. To say that, this is, at this point, it's becoming a charade.
VERJEE: Does the rest of the Arab world, when they look at what's happening now, do they see a disengagement as a victory for the Palestinian authority or as a victory for Hamas?
NASR: Well, here's a good example, just to give you an idea how things are portrayed. Al-Arabiya, which is an all news Arabic news channel based in Dubai, owned by Saudis, they're calling the coverage Gaza liberation. Al-Jazeera calling it, withdrawal. So the rhetoric is very important here. They're seeing this as definitely Israel pulling out. They don't see it as disengagement. They believe that it is the Palestinians that were able to drive Israel out.
Some -- you still hear voices saying that Israel still has an interesting in pulling out of Gaza. Some people saying that this is just a matter of redeployment. This is not a pullout. This is not a disengagement. This is just a repositioning of troops. Others are saying that Prime Minister Sharon has a very clear plan. He gives Gaza, especially in this media, with this media attention. They're saying that he's going to use the media attention, the world media attention, give Gaza back. And then, in return, ask for -- someone said, ask for the moon, basically, in reference to a big chunk of the West Bank and perhaps all of Jerusalem.
CLANCY: Now, blame Israel has been a basic component of the Arab media for decades. And this isn't going to change that. How much is the Arab media focussing in on what comes next? And that is the Palestinians trying to take control of their own lives. And who's going to run the show? Is it going to be the elected leadership? Is it going to be the gunmen in the streets of Gaza?
NASR: And this is a question that's on the minds of many, many people on Arab media, both broadcast and print. You have, for example, a headline on Al-Hayas (ph) newspaper this morning, said who is going to govern Gaza after the pullout? Israel, the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, or chaos? This is a very deep thought, coming from an Arab journalist who is in Jerusalem.
CLANCY: So somebody's thinking about it.
NASR: Absolutely. And the idea of chaos is not new to Arab media. They look at the situation, and they say, look, the Palestinian Authority doesn't have what it takes to govern Gaza. Hamas does, but they shouldn't be the ones running Gaza. Will Israel really let the Palestinians rule themselves. Can the Palestinians work together? Are they going to say, look, it was me that pushed the Israelis out. Or no, it was me. Or are they going to say, the Palestinians take full credit. Now the Palestinians are going to rebuild Gaza together, without fighting over who's going to run Gaza. So no, that's absolutely on everybody's mind.
The other thing is, Jim, you've covered the Middle East long enough to know the saying that Arabs agree to disagree. Well, on the issue of Palestinian territories and the Palestinian issue, the Arabs, all Arabs agree, and you can see this on their coverage today. Very interesting how all of them agree that Israel is an occupier. That the settlements are illegal, that this is good for the Palestinians, but yet, it raises major questions as to the future of the peace process. They see this as a big test. They see Gaza as a huge test.
In self-governance, will the Palestinians be able to run themselves? Because an expert was saying, if the Palestinians start fighting each other over who's going to run Gaza, they're going to give a perfect excuse for Ariel Sharon to say, see, I don't have a partner to have peace with. So basically, lots of ideas are brewing right now, and a lot of uncertainty.
But, underlying all this, the Arab media saying, that this is a day to be joyful. This is a day to celebrate the fact that Israel is getting out of Gaza. CLANCY: All right, Octavia Nasr, much remains to be seen what will be done in the future. And for the Arabs, the future is what's important about these pictures that we see here. We're going to have to take a short break -- Zain.
VERJEE: YOUR WORLD TODAY will continue in just a moment. We'll leave you here with some of the pictures atop the synagogue in Kfar Darom.
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CLANCY: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Jim Clancy.
VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee. Over the past hour or so, over the past hours actually, we have been watching moments of intense confrontation in the modern history of Israel.
You're looking at a map now that shows you some of the settlements in Gaza that are being evacuated. Neveh Dekalim there in the very center. One of the places where we have been watching. We're also watching Kfar Darom, up much closer to Gaza City, the main concentration of Palestinians. But this one of the largest, oldest settlements in Gaza. The synagogue in Kfar Darom there now at the heart of the battle. Police clearly having the upper hand -- Zain.
VERJEE: It was always going to be hard to evacuate. It was always going to be the case, said the Israeli military, but Kfar Darom has proved the fiercest resistance so far. Israeli security forces have been preparing for this moment.
John Vause is there, and he has been covering events there throughout the day. He joins us now -- John.
VAUSE: Hello, Zain. It appears that now the Israeli police have got the upper hand in a struggle against the protesters who are on the roof of the synagogue here at Kfar Darom, but there have been some fairly ugly scenes, notably what appeared to be acid thrown at policemen and women as they worked their way to that rooftop. To clear off exactly what has been happening here.
I am joined by Major General David Tzur with the Israeli police.
So, first question, what was thrown at the policemen? Why were they in so much agony? What was it?
MAJ. GEN. DAVID TZUR, ISRAELI POLICE: They threw everything they had from water to everything they grabbed on the roof. And they prepared before that.
And it looks dramatic, but we are prepared for that. Police officers and the soldiers were very well protected. We have slight injuries. I wasn't informed that there are more than that.
Hopefully it will take a few hours, but hopefully we will finish up today.
VAUSE: But was it acid that was thrown at the police?
TZUR: Excuse me?
VAUSE: Was it acid that was thrown?
TZUR: Well, it -- we think it's a mixed water, with acid with paint and all kinds of stuff.
VAUSE: OK, and confirm for us. Why was there blue dye in the water cannon which was spread out earlier today? There was a mixture of water, and blue dye and turpentine.
TZUR: It's part of the water we use in those cannon attracts in order to paint those protesters. And then we can have evidence, if necessary, we put them to trial.
VAUSE: What happens to these protesters, now, the ones who have been taken away? Where are they going, and what will be their fate?
TZUR: The first mission is to evacuate all the area. So, first of all, we're going to evacuate them. And then we're going to see what their evidence is. Mainly, we don't go dramatically or charges on all of them. But those who are -- were very violent against the police officers and the soldiers, we're probably going to put them on trial.
VAUSE: OK, we saw the policemen and women going through the razor wire, going up on ladders. But they've also faced a fair amount of abuse, too. We've seen soldiers today being called Nazis, things like that. How does an Israeli Jewish police officer deal with being called a Nazi and deal with this kind of thing?
TZUR: Of course, we are very sorry on all these scenes. It's very emotional. We think it's part of the things we thought we're going to face. We trained our soldiers and the police officers for that. I think you can see that they are very much prepared for that. They are not getting emotional. We know that it's not personal. It's a very important decision which the government took. We are a democracy country. We have to execute those decisions of the government. And I think it's very respectable, the way we're doing with it. Although, you can see, very emotional scenes here.
VAUSE: And just tell us, how well prepared were the protesters for the arrival of the police today?
TZUR: Mainly what you see here, they are not settlers. They are not living here. The settlers, most of them, over 70 percent, were evacuated, even last night. So you can see a lot of professional protesters which came from all over during the last month or before that. We're talking for a few thousands. And now we're dealing with them here in Neveh Dekalim, in Katif, in Shirat Hayam and other places. And, then, we feel that they are more aggressive, and we know how to deal with them.
VAUSE: What message does this now send to the protesters who are still left in the Gaza Strip? TZUR: I think the main message is that we are very determined to do our mission. It's no use to keep going with this. And since, I think, we expect very much the fact that they feel they have to protest and to express their sorrow. I think we are all, all of us, very emotional with what's happening here. But, it's something we're going to do, and we go in it very determined.
VAUSE: OK, David Tzur, major general with the Israeli police. Thank you very much.
Let's go back and keep an eye on those pictures, Jim, about what's happening here. We can see the protesters are still being brought out, one at a time. They're bringing them down in the cargo container. We heard from Major General David Tzur with the Israeli police, basically saying that some of the policemen have been wounded. They are light wounds. Nothing too serious at this stage. And we've also seen a number of protesters who have been hurt, as well, in what has been by far the most violent confrontation in this evacuation of the Gaza Strip -- Jim.
CLANCY: John, looking at -- darkness is falling. I know they wanted to get this operation out of the way. Like you say, they do have the upper hand right now. Obviously, they're going to be staying there until they do complete it, and they've got the lights to do that.
VAUSE: Yes, that's right, Jim. The operational plan when this disengagement first began was always never to carry out an operation at night unless it was in progress. This, obviously, is in progress. And the police will be here until it is complete, until every last protester inside this synagogue and on the roof of the synagogue has been taken away, taken away on a bus, and then sent away to a holding cell somewhere inside Israel -- Jim?
CLANCY: Now, is there any possibility -- I know that they're going through various settlements, one by one -- are there any fears that the settlers or their supporters will try to return here after the military is gone?
VAUSE: Well, one of the concerns has always been that after the Israeli army and police empty out a settlement, that these kinds of protesters will return and cause all sorts of trouble for the police, to try and get them out again. So the plan has always been to secure the settlements with a security force. Example, in Dugit and Nissanit in the north, which were emptied out quickly and fairly easily, there is a security force there, a combination of police and soldiers, who are guarding against that possibility. All the settlers and, more importantly, the protesters returning.
So they are securing the empty settlements, and it seems with these protesters being arrested, they will not have an opportunity to return to Gaza. Certainly not any time soon, and certainly not once it's headed over to the Palestinians. So they will secure the settlements. That has always been part of the plan. There is a concern that, as some of these settlements were evacuated, they may turn up in the other -- in the other areas of the Gaza Strip. The police have planned for that. They believe they're taking care of that possibility -- Jim.
CLANCY: A dramatic day. John Vause, we thank you for your coverage, helping us to understand what's going on with this story. It is not over yet. But in Kfar Darom, clearly, the police have the upper hand. Before we leave you, let's recap some of the developments -- Zain.
VERJEE: Dramatic and intense moments in Gaza as Israeli troops encountered stiff resistance on day two of the forced evacuation of Jewish settlers. But the troops have appeared to have gained the upper hand now. Troops using ladders, crane, and water cannon to end the standoff on the roof of a synagogue in Kfar Darom. Most of the protesters on the roof not settlers; they've, in fact, come in from the West Bank, and some of them for Jerusalem.
In some cases, also, the water cannon shot what was evidently an acidic agent. Dozens of protesters barricaded themselves up there behind rolls of barbed wire, refusing to come down. They threw what appeared to be water and dirt at the soldiers as they climbed the ladders and cut the razor wire to reach the roof.
CLANCY: Now, troops have also been pulling out protesters one by one from a main synagogue in the Neveh Dekalim settlement. Hundreds of people there locked arms inside, forming human chains and chanting, "Jews don't expel Jews." Despite the dramatic scenes, officials say the withdrawal of all Gaza settlements is actually going ahead of schedule at this hour, and they hope to finish up those evacuations by some time early next week.
This has been a special edition of YOUR WORLD TODAY. We thank our viewers around the world for joining us. I'm Jim Clancy.
VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee. This is CNN.
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