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Your World Today

Iraqi Detainee Abuse; Bush's Asia Trip

Aired November 16, 2005 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Center, this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Torture troubles for the Iraqi government. The prime minister orders a probe into alleged abuse by security personnel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THAHE MOHAMMED SABBAR, FORMER IRAQI DETAINEE (through translator): Immediately, as they pulled the bag off my head, I saw the lions right in front of me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Former detainees allege U.S. troops also used unconventional and unconscionable methods.

VERJEE: And APEC arrivals. World leaders prepare for economic talks.

HOLMES: It's 2:00 a.m. right now in Busan, South Korea. It is noon in Washington.

Hello, everyone. I'm Michael Holmes.

VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee.

A warm welcome to our viewers throughout the world and in the United States. This is CNN International, and this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

HOLMES: Let's begin with those accusations and allegations of torture at the hands of both Iraqis and U.S. troops.

VERJEE: Sunni Arabs are calling for an international investigation into possible prisoner abuse by Iraqi police.

HOLMES: And a former Iraqi detainee says U.S. troops used lions as a tool of intimidation.

VERJEE: We are going to get to that case in just a moment.

But first, the Iraqi government is under fire for allegations of torture against detainees discovered inside the interior ministry compound. Some of the more than 160 detainees showed physical signs of abuse.

Senior international correspondent Nic Robertson reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): CNN was recently given these shocking images of brutalized Iraqi prisoners. The video came from the deputy governor of Diyala Province, just north of Baghdad. He got a tip about police torture and took a cameraman to record what he found. Victims showed welts, apparently from beatings. The date on the tape indicated the video was shot back in August.

(on camera): And now in Baghdad, an apparently similar case of torture has been discovered at a ministry of interior facility by the U.S. military. When out searching for a 15-year-old boy, they entered a building containing many detainees, some of whom they said required medical attention. According to an Iraqi police officer at the scene, many had suffered torture.

(voice-over): While the police and U.S. military won't say where the building is in Baghdad, Iraq's deputy minister of interior confirms the abuse of prisoners, saying he is shocked, but says it's the worst torture he has seen.

HUSSEIN KAMAL, DEPUTY INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): I saw signs of physical abuse by brutal beating. One or two detainees were paralyzed and some had their skin peeled off various parts of their body.

ROBERTSON: U.S. troops have taken control of the premises, detaining several non-prisoners found at the facility. The U.S. is also providing medical care for some of the apparent torture victims. The Iraqi government says many of the prisoners appear not to have been fed.

The deputy interior minister blames a lack of resources for the abuses.

KAMAL (through translator): A major problem we face is that there are not enough places to contain these detainees after the preliminary investigation is through with them.

ROBERTSON: On Baghdad streets, rumors are rife about renegade ministry of interior death squads carrying out sectarian killings.

Interior ministry officials say they are aware those rumors are circulating, but vigorously deny them. Still, interior ministry officials now say they want a full investigation into the torture cases they say they found in Baghdad.

Iraq's prime minister wants answers, too. He's formed an investigative committee.

IBRAHIM AL JAFARI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): The committee will start today to look at this situation, investigate it and report back what happened and how we got to where we are today. ROBERTSON: If the new mood of self-examination in the Iraqi government is sustained, the public may well learn more about the abuses, not only in Baghdad, but also in Diyala Province and dispel the swirling rumors and restore confidence in the security forces.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Well, the deputy interior minister, Kamal, also says that the allegations of the majority of detainees were Sunni Arabs and nonsense (ph).

Well, joining us from Baghdad to discuss for a moment the detainee abuse issue is Sa'Doon al-Zubaydi. He is the spokesman for the Iraqi Council for National Dialogue, a Sunni political party.

What do you think about the idea of Iraqis investigating this?

SA'DOON AL-ZUBAYDI, IRAQI COUNCIL FOR NATIONAL DIALOGUE: Good evening. I wish you wouldn't describe me as representing a Sunni community, because this is an Iraqi affair.

And I personally, and the people I represent, are not surprised to hear -- to have discovered this kind of treatment in view of two facts. One is the plethora of rumors and allegations that we keep hearing about mistreatment, and also of detention areas. But the other factor is the factor of the culture of violence and violations of human rights that we've been living in for during the past two years, especially.

And the American precedents are no exception to that. I mean, Abu Ghraib and Falluja and other places are precedents for encouragement for this kind of violation for human rights in Iraq.

HOLMES: Well, tell me this, sir, they were mainly Sunnis. Do you think Sunni -- there is an election around the corner. Let's face it. Do you think that Sunni politicians are politicizing this to make it into a sectarian debate?

AL-ZUBAYDI: I think they shouldn't. This is an Iraqi issue. And I know that the Islamic Party has tried to use this for -- you know, as an electioneering issue. And I wouldn't agree with that.

This is a very sad moment for the Iraqi people. And I believe that the Islamic Party, which is a sectarian party, it's a Sunni party, it should not really use this as an election issue. This is a very sad problem.

HOLMES: Well, what then is the answer? Is it to get Iraqis out of the investigation altogether, bring in a third body?

AL-ZUBAYDI: Yes, I would agree very much with that, because since I've been talking about not only official Iraqi practices, but also practices by the occupation forces, then I believe it's high time that some international probe is introduced into this affair so that we will be -- we will have the opportunity to know the facts for what they really are, instead of having both the -- you know, the judge and the culprit doing the job.

HOLMES: Well, tell me this, without wanting to prejudge whatever inquiry does come about, how does this happen? How do 160-odd people get locked up inside a ministry building and allegedly mistreated in this fashion? This is not a good sign of the new Iraq.

AL-ZUBAYDI: It's never a good sign of the new Iraq. And we don't know what kind of new Iraq you are talking about.

The new Iraq that we hear about does not exist. The new Iraq that is supposed to have developed democracy to export it into the region has become an Iraq that can only export violence into the region. And that is not the dream that the American -- the American administration has promised the Iraqi people. It's a failure that can be seen by the Iraqi people, and I think by the world, of the American adventure in Iraq.

However, I will insist that this problem should not be used only for elections. It should be used as a legal problem. And I'm glad that official sources in the government and the prime minister have taken it seriously and have established their own investigation. But I believe this investigation should be supported by international assistance. And it should be an international investigation.

HOLMES: And just briefly, if you will, you were, for many years, Saddam Hussein's English language translator. You were an ambassador in his administration, I think, to Indonesia. When you look back at those years of Saddam Hussein, and then you look at these allegations, has a lot changed?

AL-ZUBAYDI: Not a lot, no. Fear is -- has quadrupled, insecurity is prevalent, security is totally absent. Services are not there. The Iraqi people are living very badly.

We hear all sorts of rumors. We hear all sorts of slogans. And we know that the country is occupied.

The American adventure is a failure. And what more do you want to know about Iraq nowadays? Iraq is totally mismanaged. Corruption is rampant. We've lost $35 billion in corruption out of a total revenue than no more than $45 billion in two years.

What kind of achievement is that?

HOLMES: A somber outlook. Sa'Doon al-Zubaydi with the Iraqi Council for National Dialogue. Thanks for being with us on YOUR WORLD TODAY.

Well, there is more to come on this issue, not surprisingly. A little later in the program we're going to go live to Washington for details on a case of Iraqis accusing U.S. soldiers of abuse.

VERJEE: And the torture of detainees is our subject of our question of the day. We want you to weigh in on it. HOLMES: Yes. The question is this. Is torture ever justified? This is a very serious debate ongoing around the world, in particular, in the U.S.

Email us your comments, YWT@CNN.com. Don't forget to include your name and where you're writing from.

VERJEE: U.S. President George W. Bush is in South Korea to attend the Asia-Pacific economic forum. At a stop in Kyoto, Japan, earlier, Mr. Bush urged China to move further to allow political and religious freedoms. And he held up Taiwan as a role model. That message didn't go down well with Beijing.

Senior Asia Correspondent Mike Chinoy reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE CHINOY, CNN SR. ASIA CORRESPONDENT: Before heading off to South Korea and the APEC Summit, President Bush delivered a major address in Kyoto, Japan. It's theme, the need to expand freedom around the world, and especially in this part of the world -- the target of the speech, China, and its communist rulers.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As China reforms its economy, its leaders are finding that once the door to freedom is opened even a crack, it cannot be closed. As the people of China grow in prosperity, their demands for political freedom will grow as well.

CHINOY: The president held out Japan and China's arch-rival, Taiwan, as models of freedom and democracy, which he urged Beijing to follow. That prompted a sharp reaction from the Chinese foreign minister, who accused the president of interfering in China's internal affairs with the reference to Taiwan. China, of course, claims Taiwan as one of its own provinces.

On Thursday, President Bush will be holding a meeting with South Korea's president, Ro Roh Moo-hyun. High on the agenda there, the North Korean nuclear crisis and the state of the U.S.-South Korean alliance.

Then it will be down to business at the APEC summit, 21 leaders of nations and economies on both sides of the Pacific. The discussion focusing on trade issues, security and terrorism, and on growing concerns about the possibility of an avian flu pandemic.

BUSH: We now face a new and potentially more deadly threat from avian flu, which has infected bird populations across Asia and elsewhere. I'm glad to see that governments around the region are already taking steps to prevent avian flu from becoming a pandemic.

CHINOY: To underscore the seriousness of this threat, China announced its first three human threats of bird flu. And Beijing announced plans to vaccinate the country's entire stock of poultry against the disease. That's more than five billion chickens, ducks and geese.

Mike Chinoy, CNN, Busan, South Korea.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: After numerous outbreaks in fowl, China marks an unfortunate bird flu milestone.

HOLMES: That's right. You'll have a report on that.

Also ahead, he paid a price for his bravery, but he says he would not change a thing. A New Delhi bus driver talks to us about his life- saving and life-changing action.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VERJEE: Hello. You're watching CNN International.

HOLMES: Yes. A warm welcome to our viewers around the world, including in the United States.

VERJEE: The World Health Organization is confirming China's first human bird flu death. The victim was a -- the victim was a poultry worker. The Chinese government also reporting one other human infected with the H5N1 virus, and another suspected death. The country has seen at least nine outbreaks among fowl in just the last month.

HOLMES: A car bomb in Indian-controlled Kashmir has killed at least four people. Dozens more wounded in that blast near the near the Jammu in Kashmir bank headquarters in Srinagar. Officials say a former government minister's motorcade was passing nearby at the time. So far, no claim of responsibility for that blast.

VERJEE: Last month, near-simultaneous bomb blasts in New Delhi left nearly 60 people dead. But as Satinder Bindra reports, the death toll might have been much higher were it not for the bravery of one man.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Millions of Indians are praying for bus driver Kuldeep Singh's recovery. Just over two weeks ago, Singh saved dozens of lives when he removed a bomb placed on board his bus by a terrorist.

"I picked up the bomb and got off the bus," he says. "I took it a short distance away and put it near a tree. As soon as I stepped away, the bomb went off."

When Singh regained consciousness, he was in a hospital. His right hand was badly mangled, and has now undergone several surgeries. He's lost sight in one of his eyes and can barely see me with the other. He also finds it very hard to hear, but says he's happy his actions saved many lives. "I wasn't scared at all," he says. "A lady passenger advised me to park the bus and get off". I told her, "Lady, maybe you are scared. I'm not. I'll pick this bag with the bomb up and throw it outside."

Singh says it was critical to get the bomb as far away from this bus as possible.

(on camera): Singh's bus, like almost all New Delhi buses, was powered by compressed natural gas stored in nine highly-pressurized tanks. If the bomb had exploded inside the bus, Singh realized it would have detonated these gas containers, killing many in these crowded streets.

(voice over): In appreciation of his effort, his employer has now given Singh a full-time desk job. His 23-year-old wife, Nigam, who is eight months pregnant with their first child, has also been given a small apartment.

"I'm happy that he acted so bravely," she says. "But I'm also sad because I'm living here in this condition, and he's not here to look after me."

Back at the hospital, Singh says all he can think about is going home. He's also sad his driving career is over. But his admirers say his actions prove that one man's efforts can foil a terrorist act.

Satinder Bindra, CNN, New Delhi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: All right. A look at what is topping the news in the United States, that's up next for our viewers in the U.S.

VERJEE: And the rest of us will get a report on what's moving the financial markets. We are also going to be looking at oil prices on the move again -- this time upward.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone. I'm Fredricka Whitfield at the CNN Center in Atlanta. More of YOUR WORLD TODAY in a few minutes. But first, a check of the stories making headlines here in the U.S.

A developing story -- news of a major drug sting and indictments in Washington. DEA officials tell CNN three high-level Guatemalan drug agents have been arrested in Northern Virginia. They are charged in an indictment with conspiracy to import and distribute cocaine in the U.S. DEA officials say one of the men arrested is Guatemala's top anti-narcotics officer. We'll have more on this story throughout the day here on CNN.

Residents are cleaning up today after 35 tornadoes ripped across five states in the Midwest and South. One death was blamed on the storm in Kentucky. More than 20 people were injured in the state. Dozens of homes have been damaged. Power lines and trees are down. National Guard troops have been helping with search and rescue operations and in clearing the debris there.

In Indiana, a teenage motorist death is being linked to the stormy weather. State officials say at least nine homes were destroyed. But the damage was far less severe than last week. A tornado tore through an Evansville mobile home park, killing 23 people last week.

Officials in Henry County, Tennessee, say two tornadoes touched down there. At least 13 people were injured. Twenty-one houses have been destroyed. And hundreds of residents in the rural area have no power. The county emergency management office took a direct hit from a tornado. But officials were able to move operations to another building.

Let's check in now with Bonnie Schneider.

(WEATHER REPORT)

WHITFIELD: The head of the Senate Democrats fires a warning shot concerning Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito. This is as the nominee made courtesy calls on Capitol Hill today.

His first stop was the office of Maine's Olympia Snowe. The meetings come as Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid says he has significant concerns about Alito.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: Even in the first two weeks of the confirmation process, picture Sam Alito as emerging. That may explain why the right wing -- extreme right wing is popping champagne corks. Earlier this week, we learned of the 1985 memo in which Alito said, "I am and always have been a conservative." And he also spoke proudly of his work on behalf of an extremely conservative agenda.

We don't have to guess whether Judge Alto's description of himself in that memo would predict what kind of a judge he would be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Senator Reid says the emerging picture of Alito explains why the extreme right wing is, as he puts it, popping champagne corks.

The Senate Banking Committee today approved the nomination of Ben Bernanke to be Federal Reserve chairman. Bernanke will face a final vote in the full Senate. Bernanke is currently the chairman of the White House Council of Economic Advisors. If confirmed by the Senate, Bernanke would take over for Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan who retires at the end of January.

Delta pilots are threatening to walk off the job if the airline prevails in federal bankruptcy court. Delta is going to court today seeking permission to cut $325 million in wages and benefits from the pilots' contracts. The pilots' union has agreed to $90 million in concessions. Two days ago, Delta warned that a pilot strike would be the end of the airline. Delta filed for bankruptcy protection in September.

The dangers that lurk beneath you on commercial air flights? A new wrinkle in the CIA leak case. And diet pill dangers. Those are just some of the stories the "LIVE FROM" team is tackling at the top of the hour.

YOUR WORLD TODAY continues right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Welcome back, everyone, to YOUR WORLD TODAY right here on CNN international. I'm Michael Holmes.

VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee.

(NEWSBREAK)

HOLMES: Now in addition to allegations that Iraqis tortured detainees, some new claims are surfacing about mistreatment at the hands of U.S. troops.

Tom Foreman talked to one of the plaintiffs filing lawsuits that reached to the very top of the Pentagon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was three months after the fall of Baghdad, in 2003, that Thahe Mohammed Sabbar's tale of torment began.

THAHE MOHAMMED SABBAR, FORMER IRAQI DETAINEE (through translator): I had a very modern life.

FOREMAN: That's when he says he and 20 others were seized at his business by U.S. soldiers, handcuffed, hooded, beaten and taken to one of Saddam Hussein's former palaces.

SABBAR (through translator): Immediately, as they pulled the bag off my head, I saw the lions right in front of me.

FOREMAN: Sabbar says he was in front of a cage of lions and that two soldiers carried him to the cage door, while another swung it wide.

SABBAR (through translator): At the time, as he opened the door, they put me right at the beginning, at the front of the cage. And when the lions came very quickly towards us, was a very horrific noise. At that time, the two pulled me and the third closed the door.

FOREMAN (on camera): So, then, what happened?

SABBAR (through translator): I lost conscious at that moment for a -- for a period of time. They woke me up by so beating me.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Then, he says, he and the group were put against a wall. Soldiers pointed rifles at them and fired -- blanks.

SABBAR (through translator): I could not stand up very well. And I urinated on my own clothes.

FOREMAN: Day after day, through six months of confinement, he says he was beaten, deprived of sleep, food, water, medical care, that he was sodomized by U.S. soldiers and shot with an electric prod.

SABBAR (through translator): I thought my life had ended. I was turned into a man that is completely hopeless for any potential for life.

FOREMAN: Many of Sabbar's complaints and those of seven other detainees are in lawsuits filed against U.S. military leaders, including Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. They seek to have the military officials declared in violation of U.S. and international law.

Lucas Guttentag is the ACLU attorney on the case.

LUCAS GUTTENTAG, ACLU ATTORNEY: Let's just be clear. It is absolutely irrefutable that widespread torture and abuse occurred in Afghanistan and Iraq. That's the findings of the military's own reports. The question is, who is going to be held accountable for that?

FOREMAN: At the Pentagon, however, their story -- in particular, the lions -- is drawing skepticism that it might be part of insurgent tactics.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It seems quite farfetched. People are -- obviously, every -- everything that everyone alleges is looked into. But you have got to keep in mind that the -- the documents that were found, I believe in Manchester, train people, terrorists, to lie about their treatment. And they do it consistently. And it always works.

FOREMAN: The Pentagon says, through 12 major investigations and 2,800 interviews about alleged prisoner abuse, lions never showed up, not once.

Saddam Hussein's now dead son Uday had lions, but the International Fund for Animal Welfare and the man who was in charge of those animals tell us most were taken to the zoo two months before Sabbar was picked up. And the rest were kept under lock and key by zoo officials at another palace.

What's more, the lion story does not appear in Sabbar's own lawsuit. Still...

GUTTENTAG: We have confidence in the allegations we put in the complaint, and in the conduct that our clients were subjected to, and in the statements that they have made about the abuse that they suffered. We have complete confidence in that. And we look forward to proving it. And if...

(CROSSTALK)

FOREMAN (on camera): So, you would believe -- if you believe the statements they made, you believe this happened?

GUTTENTAG: Oh, we -- we...

(CROSSTALK)

FOREMAN: The lion -- the lion thing happened?

GUTTENTAG: We think that's entirely consistent with the other kinds of abuse that happened.

FOREMAN (voice-over): So, why not include the lions in the lawsuits? Why not include Sabbar's accusations that guards randomly fired rubber bullets at prisoners?

(on camera): When would they do this?

SABBAR (through translator): Whenever it suits them, whenever they like.

GUTTENTAG: Because a lawsuit is the beginning; it is not the end.

FOREMAN (voice-over): The lawsuit does include a graphic description of how U.S. soldiers sodomized Sabbar. But when we asked about this serious accusation:

SABBAR (through translator): I don't like to speak about that.

FOREMAN (on camera): But it did happen?

SABBAR (through translator): I don't want -- I don't wish to speak about that.

FOREMAN: You don't want to say if it did happen or not?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's cut that off.

FOREMAN: Hold on. Hold on.

(voice-over): Sabbar's lawyers tried to stop the interview at this point. And, a few minutes later, when we had to change tapes, he left and never returned.

But the lawyers did, first to insist we not show Sabbar's reaction to those last questions, saying, while they wanted the accusation of sodomy in this story, Sabbar was too embarrassed to be questioned about it.

And, second, the lawyers disavowed something their own client said.

Time and again, in my hour-long interview, I asked Sabbar if he was ever questioned by the people tormenting him.

(on camera): It sounds like what you're saying here is, in the entire time you were captive, you were never questioned about anything.

SABBAR (through translator): No. That's what I'm saying.

FOREMAN (voice-over): The lawyers indicated Mr. Sabbar was still in the hotel where we conducted these interviews. So, we asked if he could come back down and clear up that point. He did not.

But this did happen. Three-and-a-half-hours after Sabbar left the interview room, the lawyers brought in a second detainee from the lawsuits, Sherzad Khalid. He told us he was arrested with Sabbar, kept in the same prison and subjected to many of the same torments. But, he says, he was questioned relentlessly.

SHERZAD KAMAL KHALID, FORMER IRAQI DETAINEE (through translator): The first question was, "Where is Saddam?" I laughed. I thought he was joking. And then he...

FOREMAN (on camera): Do you have any idea why your friend would say that he was tortured all the time, too, and they never asked him any questions?

KHALID (through translator): I have no idea. I'm telling my own story.

FOREMAN (voice-over): None of this proves or disproves whether these men are telling the truth.

This lawsuit may produce evidence that more Iraqis were brutalized by American soldiers. Or it may show that American soldiers are being unjustly accused of things they did not do. And, in the midst of a difficult war, either may be hard to accept.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: Tom Foreman Joins us now live from Washington. Tom, great reporting.

I'm interested to know your impressions personally of these men, and their own credibility as it struck you.

FOREMAN: Well, you know something, Zain, having done this for a long time, I don't really believe you can tell by looking at someone and talking to them whether or not they are telling you the truth, particularly when you're dealing with a language barrier.

I will say this, the facts of their two stories match up to each other generally. There are some discrepancies in that. The facts between their stories and what's in the lawsuit also has some discrepancies. We were not allowed access to these men before this interview, and as you saw, our access during the interviews was quite limited. The second man who was brought down. This is after we had waited nine or ten hours, when he was supposed to show up nine or ten hours earlier. He was brought down. And then we were told, well, you can only have 20 minutes with him.

So the problem is, we can't really vet their stories well, and that's why we have to ask all of these questions. They're asking the Pentagon to be wide open with their records, let everybody see everything, but they do not seem willing, the lawyers in this case, to do the same with their own clients and let people really get to the facts of their lives. So we know who they are.

VERJEE: And the U.S. military examining these allegations now, you say?

FOREMAN: Yes, they're looking into them. Interestingly enough -- you know, this whole lion thing, which is what grabbed all the headlines, that's not part of the lawsuit. So I'm not sure exactly what they will do with that. I'm sure as part of all their investigations, they will look into it. But because it's not part of the lawsuit, even if this were to make it all the way to court -- and it may or may not -- that would not be brought up for scrutiny in court.

So, the military says they take all of this quite seriously. But, our own military analysts here have said this is an insurgent tactic. We don't know about these men, but it is a known insurgent tactic to say once you've been captured, come out and tell all the stories you can, because even if they can't be proven, the stories are out there and they do damage.

VERJEE: What also struck me as interesting, Tom, and it also may be problematic, is that you've got non-Americans suing for rights under the U.S. Constitution. And they're trying to enforce international treaties in the U.S. court.

FOREMAN: Yes, even the lawyers on this say they don't know what's going to happen with that. Because, certainly they admit a judge may just say, hey, we don't have any jurisdiction here. This is simply not under U.S. courts. U.S. courts can't consider this as it is. And then you have to look back at the international courts. They say, the lawyers on the ACLU side say, we have to press this because they're desperate to try to get some kind of accountability for the known abuses up the chain of the military command.

The big question is, did they trot out cases that they can prove? Or in fact, will these be cases that have so many problems and can't be admitted in U.S. court and so many different things that in the end, the Pentagon says, a-ha, this proves our case. A lot of false accusations being thrown out there amid some real problems.

VERJEE: CNN's Tom Foreman. Thank you, Tom.

HOLMES: The torture of detainees is a subject of our "Question of the Day."

VERJEE: Yes, we are asking you to email us and answer this question. Tell us what you think, is torture ever justified?

Now Steven Smit writes this from Holland: "Torture is never justified. Even when people did the most horrible things, letting them know what they did wrong is enough."

HOLMES: Another viewer writes: "If torture of an insurgent and/or terrorist can save one American life, then so be it."

VERJEE: Ben Griffith in the U.S. says: "Is torture ever justified? We have sunk to a new all-time low level to even be debating this question. What will the next question be? Murder, genocide?" Email us, YWT@CNN.com. We always like you to weigh in and share your thoughts. And on another quick programming note for our international viewers, for more on the alleged detainee abuse and its impact on Sunni and Shia relations, make sure you watch INSIGHT. That's at 23:00 GMT.

HOLMES: Not done with you yet. Don't go away. A disputed piece of ancient art returns home.

VERJEE: That's still ahead on YOUR WORLD TODAY. We're going to tell you why this archaeological treasure is at the center of an international battle.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: OK, welcome back everybody.

VERJEE: Yes. Welcome back to our viewers around the world and in the United States at CNN International.

HOLMES: A court case in Italy shedding light to the shrouded world of illegal art trafficking -- the 10-year investigation culminating with a high-profile U.S. antiquities curator on trial.

Our Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci has the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): A vase painted more than 200,000 years ago, signed by the artist, a bronze Etruscan candelabrum, and an ancient gravestone from Greece. It took Italian art officials years of negotiations, and an out-of-court settlement to convince the Getty Museum in Los Angeles to return them.

The culture minister thanked the museum and said he is looking for more.

ROCCO BUTTIGLIONE, ITALIAN MIN. OF CULTURE: We want to work together in order to give back to the Italian people what belongs to our culture, to our tradition and what stands within the rights of the Italian people. That is, the works of art that have been illegally exported to the United States.

VINCI: Specifically, officials here are seeking the return of another 39 artifacts they say that were illegally exported from Italy by a former Getty curator, Marion True. She is on trial in Rome on charges of conspiring to traffic looted art, but she is denying charges.

Getty Museum officials say the decision to return the three objects was based on evidence presented by the Italian government. But giving them back, they say, did not amount to an admission of guilt. The trial, however, is putting the spotlight on the museum's acquisition practices.

GIUSEPPE PROIETTI, CULTURAL HERITAGE OFFICER (through translator): Today, museum directors are definitely more careful and are at risk of being exposed. And this does not regard only the Getty Museum, but many others that are being investigated by the police.

VINCI (on camera): Art dealers and museum directors around the world are closely monitoring this court case because the Italians say disputed artworks are currently on display in many countries, including Germany, Japan and the United States. And their goal, they say, is to retrieve as many of those objects as possible.

Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Don't go away. Still to come on YOUR WORLD TODAY...

VERJEE: Some black humor, a little bit of it, anyway. An Arab - American comedian pokes fun at his heritage and perceptions of his people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, ARAB-AMERICAN COMEDIAN: There's really two news stories about us. There's the bad ones. We're described as gunmen, terrorists or militants, balanced by only the good ones, where we're described as alleged gunmen, militant, or terrorist.

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VERJEE: Comedy and tragedy are intrinsically linked to each other, particularly for some.

HOLMES: Arab-American comic, Dean Obeidallah, mines the headlines for punch lines, making audiences laugh about some of the things that aren't usually laughing matters. I spoke to him a little earlier. Started by asking him that, given the state of the world today, especially for Arabs, what's so funny?

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, ARAB-AMERICAN COMEDIAN: What's so funny, I think, is that we are using our sense of humor to try to dispel stereotypes and diffuse tension. It's something you have to do in this world. Even myself, I look pretty White, but I am Arab-American. And the littlest things happen.

I'm paying for a credit card -- this is a true story -- the man picks up my credit card, looks at me, and becomes hostile. "Hey, buddy, what kind of name is this?" pointing at my name. And I say, Arab. He's right in my face. "What does this mean?" I say, well, "Translate to English it means peaceful, friendly Arab."

And you just want to use comedy to dispel the little tension that people might have. We are Americans born here. We are proud to be Americans, but we're also proud of our heritage from back home wherever it may be.

HOLMES: Do you find it works or sometimes are you a bit annoyed of what's going on?

OBEIDALLAH: You do. And I think the evolution of the Arab- American comics and the Arab-American Comedy Festival has shown not annoyance -- this is our third year, our first two years a lot of jokes were being about being victims. Now we are really getting into defining who we are.

Other ethnic groups get these great months that recognize their cultural contributions. There's Black History Month, Asian Awareness Month, Hispanic Awareness Month. You know what Arabs get? Orange alert.

We want a culture beyond terrorism and a response to terrorism. We want to show that we have a culture of art and comedy and we can make people laugh. And we can laugh at ourselves. We're just like every other ethnic group living in America just trying to make it. Unfortunately, the worst examples in our community have defined us, and we're trying to dispel that.

HOLMES: It must be a case that, after 9/11, when things started going downhill for Arabs around the world in terms of a suspicion and the like, After 9/11, there must have been jokes that you couldn't tell then that you can start to tell now. Has the comedy evolved in those few years?

OBEIDALLAH: It clearly has evolved. And I think that people are doing jokes that we wouldn't have done before. And some of them, honestly, are making fun of ourselves as Arab-Americans and our own culture, and holding a mirror up to ourselves. Before the last year, we didn't want to make fun of ourselves. We had so many people mocking us in the media. So now we are doing jokes about ourselves. No one's making fun of terrorism or terrorist acts or victims, that's inappropriate and wrong. But we are doing things and audiences are laughing.

There's two news stories about us: bad ones where we are described as gunmen, terrorist or militants, balanced by the good ones where we are described as alleged gunmen, militants or terrorists. We want to get beyond those two news stories and get to the fun things.

And we are demanding Osama bin Laden be captured. We are out there saying, "Why isn't he captured?" In reality, in America, he's become a has-been. And, I think, like all has-beens, next time you'll see him, he'll be a cast member on VH1's "Surreal Life."

HOLMES: What sort of things do you poke fun at? You poke fun at yourselves in a way, but you also poke fun at the attitudes towards you.

OBEIDALLAH: Well, we are because it's funny to us as Arab- Americans that people would see two Arab people speaking. We'd say they are having a conversation. Americans would say, that's chatter. Terrorist chatter's on the increase. We try to poke jokes about that kind of thing.

But we are also out taking on big issues, even the Patriot Act now. We have no problem joking about that. Like in America here, any book you take out of the library, the government can find with the name of the book. My question is, are there books that give terrorists away? "I'm al Qaeda, you're al Qaeda," "Chicken Soup for the Terrorist Soul?" or "Dirty Bombs for Dummies." No, the government's gathering information on all of us. Not just Arabs.

And we also take on President Bush. All of us are having a lot of fun with the president. In America, recent polls at 36 percent approval rating. Statistically, herpes has a higher approval rating right now than President Bush in our country.

HOLMES: Is there anything funny about being in a security line at a U.S. airport with the name of Mohammed on your passport?

OBEIDALLAH: Well, some of the other comics who look more Middle Eastern than I do have much more problems. For me it's, even been self-conscious about my friend's names, I truly have a friend named Osama. Pre-9/11 that meant nothing. Now I'm self-conscious. I say his name out loud, people turn around. On my cell phone it said "Osama's cell." My friend saw that he said, what's this? So I had to change it. Now it says "Othello's cell."

I'm self-conscious about my own friends' names. My Uncle Mohammed, and my Cousin Mustafa. It's weird when you say a relative's name on a cell phone and people turn around, because they hear you saying an Arab or Muslim name. We hope it evolves.

HOLMES: Do you tend to find that American audiences, that is, not Arab-American audiences, but the other American audiences, take a little while to warm up to your routine. Like, initially it's a little uncomfortable? Or people have a pretty good sense of humor.

OBEIDALLAH: I think they do because all our material is written from an American point of view as being an Arab. I'm an Arab- American. I'm born here just like most of the comics in the show. Or every comic in our show has at least been raised here. We talk about it, like we are Americans. Why is this happening to us? This is our country. It's an odd feeling to feel suspicious in your own country.

People try to help me. Someone said change your name from Obeidallah to the real English translation. Pick up your ethnic heritage. My name translated into "Servant of Allah." That's certainly not going to help me in these times.

People try to be helpful. And they have a sense of humor about it.

HOLMES: You could have that on your passport. That will get you through quicker, won't it?

OBEIDALLAH: I'll be walking everywhere.

HOLMES: Dean Obeidallah, thank you so much for that. Very funny man.

VERJEE: Osama's cell. HOLMES: All right, got to go. Thanks for being with us.

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