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Suicide Bomber Attacks Army Recruitment Center in Iraq; Zacarias Moussaoui Testifies in Sentencing Trial

Aired March 27, 2006 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: As violence spikes in Iraq, some Baghdad officials move to suspend cooperation with the U.S.
JONATHAN MANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Kadima, Labor or Likud? Early balloting begins in Israel's pivotal parliamentary elections.

VERJEE: And live pictures coming to you from Detroit as the immigration debate flares in the U.S. New legislation could affect more than 11 million people in the country illegally.

MANN: It's noon in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad.

I'm Jonathan Mann.

VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee.

A warm welcome to our viewers throughout the world and in the United States.

This is CNN International. This is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

MANN: Thanks for joining us.

Constant suicide attacks, executions and roadside bombings all taking their toll in Iraq.

VERJEE: And conflicting accounts also of an Iraqi-U.S. raid against suspected insurgents all stirring up trouble with Baghdad officials.

MANN: In today's violence, the U.S. military says a suicide bomber killed at least 30 people outside a recruitment center near Tal Afar. The Interior Ministry says 40, in fact, were killed.

VERJEE: And Baghdad government officials say they have suspended ties with the U.S. until an investigation is conducted into a raid in Sadr City.

MANN: Iraqi police say 20 members of the Mehdi army militia were killed near a mosque. However, Iraq's interior minister denounced the operation, saying security officials killed innocent worshippers. U.S. officials say 16 insurgents were killed and that no mosque was entered in the operation.

VERJEE: For all of the latest developments in Iraq, we go to our senior international correspondent who joins us now live from Baghdad, Nic Robertson.

Nic, Iraqi officials saying that they have suspended ties with the United States until there's a further inquiry. What more can you tell us about that?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there are several things that we know.

The incident took place late last night around the mosque in the northeast of Baghdad, around Sadr City. Now, according to Iraqi police, this was an operation that -- by U.S. military that got in a gun battle with militia members from Muqtada al-Sadr's militia, the firebrand cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and his militia, the Mehdi militia.

Now, according to U.S. military officials, that is not what happened. They say that this was an operation by Iraqi special operations forces, backed up with advisors from U.S. Special Operations forces that they were going into a building, looking for a group that they call hostage-takers and executioners, then that this group fired upon the Iraqi special operations forces. A gun battle ensued, 18 insurgents -- 18 insurgents killed, 18 taken into captivity as well.

Now, we were told that there was an amount of improvised explosive-making device material discovered at the -- discovered at the location, 32 AK-47s discovered there. But the pictures broadcast on Iraqi television showed what appeared to be unarmed people mostly lying in a building, shot and dead.

That has inflamed the situation here such that the governor of Baghdad and Baghdad City Council have both now said that they won't -- that they won't deal with, they won't work with the U.S. military until there's a thorough investigation. It has become a very, very sensitive issue with two quite different explanations -- Zain.

VERJEE: Nic, you spoke to Shia leader Abdul Aziz al-Hakim. What did he tell you? He talked about Iran and how he would like to see it play a role in Iraq.

ROBERTSON: Well, he would. He thinks it's important for Iran to play a role. He says that during Saddam Hussein's rule in Iraq that Iran supported the Iraqi people. He says that they are strong economically and have strong security and intelligence resources and that Iraq can benefit from that economic help, can benefit from a security help.

Indeed, he would like to see the United States reopen talks and discuss with Tehran exactly how Iran can better help Iraq in its current situation. He also talked about sectarian violence in the country and that he sees a very distinct now shift in populations. Thousands of Shia families, he said, are now moving to areas, many Sunni families he also said moving in sort of a sectarian divide that is opening up in the community -- Zain.

VERJEE: Nic Robertson reporting to us from Baghdad.

Thanks, Nic -- Jonathan.

MANN: And just in to CNN, news of another surprise in the trial of the man known as the 20th hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui.

CNN producer Phil Hirschkorn joins us now on the line with the latest from Alexandria, Virginia.

What happened?

PHIL HIRSCHKORN, CNN PRODUCER: Well, Jonathan, a major development somewhat of a surprise and somewhat not of a surprise. The thing that's not a surprise is Zacarias Moussaoui, after four years of saying he would do so, has testified in his own trial.

He's just finished being questioned for half an hour by one of his attorneys. The thing that's a surprise is, contrary to everything we heard for four years or more, Moussaoui has just admitted some knowledge of the 9/11 plot.

Specifically, Moussaoui admitted in court before the jury that he knew about two planes being targeted at the World Trade Center. That's all he says he knew about 9/11.

He denied that he was supposed to be the 20th hijacker on 9/11 originally. That was the government's theory of the case. They backed away from that. But he said, no, he was not supposed to be the 20th hijacker.

He said that he was instead supposed to pilot a plane into the White House. And that's part of his confession when he plead guilty last year.

But the headline here is that he says he was intending for that fifth plane to be -- to be a fifth plane on 9/11 and that he knew about the plot to hit the two towers in New York. He did not know about the Pentagon or anything else.

And another interesting part of this he says one member of his crew was supposed to be Richard Reid, who we now know is the shoe bomber. Reid and Moussaoui knew each other in England and went to one of the more radical mosques there in London.

So those are the headlines -- Jonathan.

MANN: Well, the first of them, that he said he knew about the plot, goes to the very heart of the government's case against him, doesn't it?

HIRSCHKORN: Absolutely. The heart of the government's case, their theory for seeking the death penalty against Moussaoui, is that he told lies when he was arrested in August of 2001. Everybody knows that. That's been conceded.

When Moussaoui was asked, well, why did you lie to the FBI agents? He said, well, because I'm al Qaeda. There's no dispute about that. The question for the jury is, did those lies lead to death? If Moussaoui had revealed everything, his al Qaeda confederates, that there was this sort of conspiracy afoot to hijack planes and crash them into buildings, that maybe the FBI or aviation security could have done things to thwart the plot.

What's also interesting, Jonathan, is Moussaoui admitted knowing Mohammed Atta and knowing (INAUDIBLE) who was the pilot of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania.

MANN: Now, once again, he took the stand in his own defense. He's just -- on the prosecution an enormous favor, it seems. Why did his attorneys let him do this?

HIRSCHKORN: Well, it's ultimately a defendant's choice. The defense attorneys, even at the last minute before the jury came in, they made somewhat of an effort to stop it, trying to say that he's not legally competent to testify. That's different than his mental competence, which has also been questioned over the years, but Moussaoui did pledge to tell the truth.

Two psychiatrists, by the way, who have tried to study Moussaoui's mental health over the years were in court. They were taking notes. As this case goes forward, Moussaoui's mental health will certainly be an issue.

But you're absolutely right, Jonathan. The defense lawyers did not want Moussaoui to testify. And after following this case for three weeks, he certainly did himself no good today if he wants to avoid the death penalty.

MANN: Phil Hirschkorn in Alexandria, Virginia.

A strange case gets stranger, Zacarias Moussaoui testifying in his own defense, as we heard. Does a favor for the prosecution -- Zain.

VERJEE: Jonathan, to Israel now, where the two dominant political parties could soon find themselves in an unfamiliar position, trailing a newcomer in election results. The centrist Kadima party is expected to win Tuesday's parliamentary election, although opinion polls showing that its lead has actually slipped a bit.

Candidates are making last-minute efforts to sway the undecided as police tighten security across the country. Pollsters say the swing vote could be substantial, some 10 percent of the electorate.

MANN: The man at the helm of Kadima has called the election a referendum on his plan to finalize Israel's borders with or without a peace process.

Guy Raz takes a closer look now at acting prime minister Ehud Olmert.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) GUY RAZ, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The fact that Ehud Olmert has no nickname says a lot about the man. Most public figures here are given monikers.

There's Ari and Evi (ph) and Bugi (ph) and Fuad (ph). But in Israel, Ehud Olmert is simply known as Ehud Olmert, a man who inspires very little passion one way or another among his countrymen.

EHUD OLMERT, ISRAELI ACTING PRIME MINISTER: Olmert.

ARI SHAVIT, HA'ARETZ: Olmert does not have the myth in him, he doesn't have the history in him. There isn't that deep family that he represents the identity of the country that is deeply patriotic.

RAZ: Insiders say he has always had ambitions for the top job, but few in Israel ever thought he would achieve it. He served as Jerusalem mayor for a decade, but his performance in office widely regarded as lackluster.

(on camera): So lackluster that during his tenure, Jerusalem's secular population was hemorrhaging. More people were leaving this city than were arriving, in part because of the city's poor public services, and in part because of its increasingly religious character.

(voice over): As mayor, Olmert courted the ultra orthodox, leading to charges by his critics of political opportunism.

SHAVIT: Olmert is the incarnation of the new Israeli leadership which is perceived by the public its as too personally motivated, somewhat cynical, tainted morally, this way or another, and not quite experienced. So, Olmert has a lot to prove.

RAZ: But even his detractors have been impressed with his performance so far, a three-month trial period as prime minister in the wake of Ariel Sharon's incapacitation.

Almost overnight Ehud Olmert managed to look prime ministerial. He's won (INAUDIBLE) from long-time colleagues who regard his ideological change from far right to the center as almost revolutionary. And Olmert was the man who convinced Sharon to withdraw from Gaza.

DAN MERIDOR, ISRAEL DEMOCRACY INSTITUTE: I say to the credit of Ehud Olmert that he was for this change, for this withdraw from Gaza, a long time before Sharon did it.

RAZ: Many political observers say Olmert's wife Aliza deeply influenced her husband. Her political artwork is blatantly left wing and exhibited around the world. Friends describe the marriage as a partnership.

Now Olmert is banking on broad public support for separation between Israel and the West Bank. He's vowed to set Israel's final borders with or without Palestinian agreement, something most Israelis expected Ariel Sharon to do, but a twist of fate handed the task to Olmert. And with it, an accidental appointment with history. Guy Raz, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: And be sure to tune into CNN Tuesday for extensive coverage of the Israeli election. We'll have live reports from several locations in Israel all through the day.

VERJEE: Coming up, the thorny issue of immigration reform going to the U.S. Senate.

MANN: As lawmakers decide what to do about millions of illegal immigrants in the country, Americans keep up days of protests literally in the streets. You're looking at Detroit there now. They are fighting against a tough new proposal on illegal immigration. We'll have extensive coverage of the controversy coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VERJEE: Welcome to YOUR WORLD TODAY here on CNN International.

MANN: And we're following one of the biggest stories in the country right now, the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee debating the hot-button issue of immigration reform.

VERJEE: Now, the debate comes as supporters of immigrants' rights mass in Detroit, Michigan. Similar protests like this taking place in California and in the U.S. capital.

The rally follows demonstrations across the nation over the weekend. Hundreds of thousands of demonstrators turned out in Los Angeles alone on Sunday.

MANN: Eleven to 12 million illegal immigrants live in the United States. And in California, they number some 2.2 million out of a total population of about 36 million.

VERJEE: The state spends over $2 billion annually to educate the children of illegal immigrants in kindergarten through to grade 12, and enrollment is only expected to grow.

MANN: It was tough legisilation that passed in the House, though, that sparked all of these demonstrations. U.S. President George Bush is favoring a moderate approach and is pushing a guest worker program. Some senators, including Republican Arlen Specter, are coming down on the Mr. Bush's side of the debate, but the majority leader, Bill Frist, has put forward a much tougher proposal.

Dana Bash joins us now from Capitol Hill with details of a complex debate -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Very complex, Jonathan. And this is really opening day, if you will, of this debate here in the Senate. And where it will go, it will probably be about two weeks, is anybody's guess. And a bigger question is whether or not at the end of the day President Bush in this election year, on this divisive issue, will actually see something on his desk.

Now, what you're seeing there are live pictures of the Senate Judiciary Committee. That is where this is starting. They're going through in a painstaking way the issues, very complex issues, as you mentioned, that they have to discuss on this immigration reform package.

Now, the president today said that he's concerned about playing to the fears of Americans. Now, that is something that his home state senator, John Cornyn, somebody who has been very involved out front on this issue, pretty much supports what the president supports in terms of a guest worker program. That's something that he echoed earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: The issues we're involved in are simply too important to play political games with. My state and, indeed, the whole nation is impacted daily by illegal immigration, and people in my state are eager for the federal government to step up and address this federal issue.

But we're not going to be constructive. We are simply going to play the fear card if we engage in scenarios or hypotheses which clearly are not within the intent of the committee and which no member of the Senate would support.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, talking about playing the fear card there, and the issue specifically he was talking about is something that you're seeing protests of right now. It's actually going on outside the capital as we speak, specifically an issue of whether or not religious organizations or others can provide assistance, humanitarian assistance, even help with domestic violence, helping with medical care to illegal immigrants and perhaps be prosecuted for it criminally.

Now, these protesters say that they're worried that they could be prosecuted. Earlier today in the Judiciary Committee, they did have a discussion and a vote that would give some exemptions if these people were prosecuted. But this is the very beginning, it's important to note, Jonathan, of this debate in the Judiciary Committee. It's going to go on for quite some time.

There will be lots of twists and turns, especially on the number one issue that divides Republicans. That is, of course, the so-called guest worker program, whether or not the 11 or 12 million illegal workers in this country can actually stay and under what terms -- Jonathan.

MANN: Dana Bash in Washington.

Thanks very much -- Zain.

BASH: Thank you. VERJEE: Jonathan, for more on the Bush administration's perspective now, we're joined from the White House by Ruben Barrales. He's the deputy assistant to the president and the director of the Office of Intergovernmental Affairs.

Thanks so much for joining us.

RUBEN BARRALES, DEPUTY ASSIST. TO PRESIDENT BUSH: Thank you, Zain.

VERJEE: Why does the president think the guest worker program would be a good idea?

BARRALES: Well, the president believes that we need a comprehensive immigration reform package that includes tougher border security along our borders, interior enforcement to make sure that employers are not employing illegal aliens, and a temporary guest worker program that does not include amnesty to help make sure that we absolutely address this issue.

VERJEE: Some critics say that the guest worker program would essentially amount to an amnesty in spite of what the president says. And they also say, look, how do you know that the people who come into the country are who they say they are?

BARRALES: Well, it's important to understand that this is not amnesty. What the president wants is a temporary worker program where people will work here above the table and return to their home countries. The president is very, very adamant that we need to make sure that we create security along the border and that we are able to fill the jobs that Americans won't fill here in the United States.

VERJEE: But how do you know if someone comes into the country, apparently temporarily, and hasn't -- doesn't decide, well, you know what? I'm going to continue to stay here, even when that ends?

BARRALES: Well, good question.

VERJEE: Is there a way to monitor that?

BARRALES: Well, most definitely. And that's, again, why the president is working with Congress on a comprehensive bill to make sure that interior enforcement -- in other words, addressing the issue of forged documents, making it much harder for people to seek employment with forged documents or without any documents at all.

VERJEE: And what about workers that then come into the country that could be potentially exploited? You know, they would get paid particularly low wages and do jobs that most Americans don't want to do. How would you protect that or address that?

BARRALES: Well, unfortunately, that's occurring today. And we want to do is get to a point where we're able to secure our borders, make sure to monitor who is coming in and leaving the United States within our borders, make sure that we're able to enforce the ability to use proper papers, make sure we know who is working. And then, those who are here on a temporary basis are able to work here above the table without having to take money under the table, so to speak, and be exploited. Actually, have the ability to work here and help move America's economy forward.

VERJEE: Well, those who are here already, they number something like 11 million people, illegal immigrants, in this country. On what terms and conditions would they stay? What are you advising the president?

BARRALES: Well, the president is insisting on working with Congress to develop a comprehensive plan. That means that it has to include a temporary worker program without amnesty to make sure that we address that particular component.

But again, it means working very hard, redoubling our efforts on the border, redoubling our efforts in terms of making sure that illegal immigrants aren't hired, and making sure that we have a program that would create incentives for people to leave and go back to their home countries.

VERJEE: Deputy assistant to the president and the director of the Office of Intergovernmental Affairs, Ruben Barrales.

Thank you so much.

BARRALES: Thank you.

VERJEE: The U.S. president travels to Mexico a little bit later this week. Before he leaves, the president is going to discuss the recent immigration protests, NAFTA, as well as his assessments of the situation in Iraq with CNN Espanol's Juan Carlos Lopez.

Join us now -- join us, rather, soon for an exclusive interview with President Bush. That's on Tuesday at 21:00 GMT.

All right. We're going to take a look at our "Question of the Day." We really want you to weigh in on this.

And our question is this...

MANN: It's the one a lot of people are asking now. Do illegal immigrants provide an essential labor pool for industrialized economies like the U.S.?

VERJEE: YWT@CNN.com. Tell us what you think. Keep your answers short. Tell us your name and where you're writing from as well. And we'll let you know what everyone is thinking.

Well, Bugs Bunny is cropping up in some new and unusual places.

MANN: And I get the big money line. What's up, doc? Well, that could be the operative phrase in some new languages. Part of our look at business just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Daryn Kagan at CNN Center in Atlanta. More of YOUR WORLD TODAY in a few minutes.

First, though, stories making headlines here in the U.S.

Stunning revelations just moments ago from the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui. The admitted 9/11 conspirator took the stand less than an hour ago against the advice of his own lawyers. They formally objected, but the judge OK'd it.

Our Bob Franken is standing by with the details from Alexandria, Virginia -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And it quickly became apparent why they were objecting. Moussaoui, on the stand, said he that did know about the September 11 attacks ahead of time. He said that as he was sitting in a jail cell in Minnesota in August -- quoting him -- "I didn't know the date. I knew it would happen after August."

He had been arrested in August, and the government is trying to say that he had a certain responsibility at that time to tell government officials about the September 11 attacks and the fact that it means that he is eligible for the death penalty as a result.

Moussaoui was asked whether he did lie to the FBI agent who had questioned him. He admitted that he did lie, but then went on to say that the agent didn't ask the right questions. Again, Moussaoui saying I didn't have -- "I had knowledge that the twin towers would be hit, but I didn't know the details of this" -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Bob Franken, live from Virginia.

Thank you.

The debate over immigration law spills into the streets today. In Detroit, hundreds protested against proposed reforms. Some of the legislation now being considered in Washington would make it a felony to be an undocumented worker.

A similar protest this morning in Los Angeles, where hundreds of high school students marked the state's Cesar Chavez Day. They honored the activist by waving Mexican flags and wearing white shirts to denote peace.

A Tennessee preacher's wife goes to court this afternoon. The charge, first-degree murder. The deceased, her husband.

Authorities say Mary Winkler has confessed to killing Matthew Winkler. He was a popular minister in Selmer, about 80 miles east of Memphis.

Earlier on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING," we spoke with a church member who says she visited Mary Winkler after Sunday services.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM KILLINGSWORTH, FAMILY FRIEND: It was a very emotional meeting, seeing Mary for the first time for -- after all of this had happened. She looked very well. She said she had been well taken care of, that everybody had treated her better than really what she had deserved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Pam Killingsworth says that Mary Winkler gave her no reason for the killing.

The first mayoral election in New Orleans since Katrina might not happen as planned. Civil rights groups today asking a federal judge to block the April 22 election. They say too many African-American residents displaced by Katrina will not be able to take part.

Let's check in on weather. Bonnie Schneider has that for us today.

(WEATHER REPORT)

KAGAN: "LIVE FROM" with Kyra Phillips will take it at the top of the hour. Kyra will try to shed some more light on the Tennessee case, what was the motive that drove a minister's wife to kill her husband?

Kyra will also talk with a woman who founded a support group for pastors' wives. Many say they often face more pressure in their daily lives.

I'm Daryn Kagan.

YOUR WORLD TODAY continues after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VERJEE: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY here on CNN International. I'm Zain Verjee.

MANN: And I'm Jonathan Mann. Here are some of the top stories we're following this hour.

Al Qaeda conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui is testifying at his sentencing trial in the United States. He says that while he knew about a plot to crash airplanes into the World Trade Center, he didn't have details or dates. He has already admitted conspiring with al Qaeda, but says he was working on a plot separate from the 9/11 attacks. Jurors are trying to decide between a death sentence or life in prison.

VERJEE: The U.S. Senate is debating the controversial issue of illegal immigration, and a number of competing proposals are on the table. Some senators favor the guest worker program touted by President George W. Bush, while Majority Leader Bill Frist has put forward a tougher proposal. Meanwhile, protests in support of immigrant rights are taking place across the country today in cities like Detroit in Michigan, as well as on Capitol Hill. MANN: A suicide bomber has killed at least 30 people at a recruitment center for security forces in northern Iraq. Thirty others were wondered. Meanwhile, city and provincial officials in Baghdad say they're suspending ties with U.S. forces until an Iraqi/U.S. raid is investigated. At least 16 people died in the raid, but there are conflicting reports about who the victims were and who actually killed them.

VERJEE: Kidnappings, killings, bombings. A staggering new wave of sectarian violence in Iraq, pitting Shias against Sunnis. The violence has been sparked in part by last month's bombing of the Shia Golden Mosque in Samarra.

For more on the sectarian tensions, the state of the insurgency, as well as Iran's influence in Iraq, Nic Robertson sat down with Adul Aziz Al Hakim. He's an influential Shia leader, and he heads up one of Iraq's top Shia parties, the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: The United States is putting a huge amount of pressure on Iraqi politicians at the moment to form this government, because they believe it's very important because of the increasing sectarian tensions. Doesn't that worry you that this political vacuum is exacerbating -- making that situation worse?

ABDUL AZIZ AL HAKIM, IRAQI SHIITE POLITICAL LEADER (through translator): Of course. We are trying to do our best to speed the process of forming the government, but we think the violence won't stop, even when the government is formed, but it will continue.

ROBERTSON: There's been an increase in sectarian violence. Is the sectarian violence now worse than the insurgency?

HAKIM (through translator): The religious extremists and Saddam loyalists who are launching sectarian genocide campaigns against the Shiites and anyone who believes in the political process and wants to be a part of it.

ROBERTSON: A lot of Sunnis believe that the interior ministry that's being run by a member of your party is operating death squads to target Sunnis. This is part, they believe, of the sectarian violence. What can you do to stop that?

HAKIM (through translator): This is not true, and it was denied by the interior minister more than one time. There are terrorist groups who infiltrated Iraq security forces, and they are trying to move under the cover of some official departments. There are about 33 organized forces inside the country, where we can say there are 33 militias.

ROBERTSON: After the attack on the Samarra shrine, there was a wave of attacks on Sunni mosques and Shias were blamed for that. Are you worried that there could be another incident that could inflame sectarian tensions to the point of bringing civil war? HAKIM (through translator): Of course. The attack in Samarra was similar to what happened on 9/11 in the U.S. It was a very big crime that shocked all Iraqis, Sunni and Shiite. Afterwards, the attacks on the mosques by the people who thought the mosques were supporting Sunni religious extremists were not planned, but it happened spontaneously.

ROBERTSON: How difficult -- could you control the streets? Could it break out into civil war? We see the tensions in Baghdad, on the streets of Baghdad, much higher. Tit for tat killings, communities, people moving between communities because they don't feel safe. Sunnis moving out of Shia communities, Shias moving out of Sunni communities.

HAKIM (through translator): It will be much more difficult to control than before. For three years, we've been bearing the slaughtering, killing, explosions, attacking of our scholars, our mosques, our facilities, our pilgrims, our barbers, our bakers, our innocence. We're always speaking to people to restrain themselves and calm down.

ROBERTSON: Do you see a sectarian shift in Baghdad, people moving from neighborhoods? Do you see these divisions here beginning to establish themselves in the communities?

HAKIM (through translator): This is true and clear in some regions. There are thousands of Shiite families and some Sunni families, as well, moving from one region to another. It's part of the agenda of the next government to move those displaced families back home and to protect them. It is the aim of the Sunni extremists to take the community into sectarian strife and lead them to civil war.

ROBERTSON: The United States administration says Iran is interfering in the affairs of Iraq. Is that correct?

HAKIM (through translator): They always accuse Iran of such accusations, and they told us about such things. But until now, we were always asking for evidence, but nobody came with evidence.

ROBERTSON: What's your role been in your discussions with the Americans here about opening a dialogue with Tehran?

HAKIM (through translator): We called them publicly to open the dialogue with the U.S. and we hope that such dialogue can solve a lot of problems. We need help from everyone. From the U.S., who we consider a partner for Iraq, and now from Iran, because Iran supported Iraqis for more than 20 years and paid a big price. They stood beside all Iraqis, from Arab, Kurds, Sunni and Shiite. They adopted their case in a time where all the countries were closing their doors in the face of Iraqis.

Iran is a neighbor and a strong country in the region. They can help to solve security and economic problems. There is also a kind of concern between the U.S. and Iran, a problem which lasted a quarter of a century, and it is in our interest as Iraqis, they reach an understanding and solve their own problems.

ROBERTSON: Iran could play a role in helping with some of the security issues and some of the economic issues in Iraq. Exactly how would that happen?

HAKIM (through translator): First of all, they've got strong and capable security forces. They can help in controlling the borders. Secondly, they've got a lot of information that we can get regarding Iraq, like terrorism operations. And, third, we can benefit from the experience of all the neighboring countries. This is why also we proposed a formation of the intelligence system or establishment for the whole region to fight terrorists in their region.

ROBERTSON: Many Sunnis say that Iraq is becoming too Iranian- influenced now, and this makes them very afraid.

HAKIM (through translator): They have some fears and concerns, but I spoke to some them. I asked them whether they wanted to participate in this talk, and they agreed.

ROBERTSON: The new Iraq, though, is going to have a much greater Iranian influence than it had in the past. Is that a reality now?

HAKIM (through translator): I do not think so. Maybe some people are saying that because we are Shiites and this is the influence of Iran. But actually, there is no connection to Iran at all.

ROBERTSON: Have you agreed to form a government of national unity and why is it taking so long to do it?

HAKIM (through translator): We decided all the main political parties will participate in the government. Naturally, there are many views, and there must be a lot of dialogue and negotiations, considering we all have differences.

ROBERTSON: One of those issues that's a stumbling block to form the new government is the issue of prime minister, currently Mr. Ibrahim Al Jaafari, as the nominee. Will your party continue to support his nomination?

HAKIM (through translator): We believe in some principles. Among them is respecting the united Iraqi alliance and the necessity to maintain its unity. At the same time, we believe in the principle of participation, because we cannot form a government unless we have the agreement of two-thirds of the members in the parliament.

ROBERTSON: Does that mean you're going to nominate somebody else for prime minister?

HAKIM (through translator): This will need some discussion. And in a little while, the image will be much clearer.

ROBERTSON: What exactly is going to become clearer?

HAKIM (through translator): The discussions taking place now are about the National Security Council, and then we will discuss the program of the government. And after that, the mechanisms of making decisions within the council of ministers. When these issues are finished, then we will start talking about the presidencies.

ROBERTSON: How long do you think it's going to take to form this new government?

HAKIM (through translator): I cannot specify a certain date or time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: The leader of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, Abdul Aziz Al Hakim, speaking to CNN's Nic Robertson. And as we heard, talk about pressure from the U.S. government, pressure to try and push Iraqi officials to quickly form a government of national unity as a way to help curb the violence there.

Joining us now with her perspective on the conflict in Iraq is Jane Arraf, our former Baghdad bureau chief, now a fellow with the Council on Foreign Relations.

Thanks so much for being with us.

JANE ARRAF, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Thanks, John.

MANN: Good to be working with you once again.

ARRAF: Thanks.

MANN: People are wondering if the war has entered a whole new phase, a sectarian phase. And listening now to a prominent Shia leader speak about the role of Iran and the role of the United States, are the Shia distancing themselves from the people who delivered Iraq to their hands, to democracy? Are the Shia moving away from Washington and the U.S.?

ARRAF: I think that's a really interesting thing. You know, I think one of the things that we like to believe to make ourselves feel better about what's happened and to make this comprehensible to us is that Iraq really is Kurdish and Shia and Sunni. But it's so much more complicated than that, and I think that's what we're seeing that now.

We're seeing those divisions within the Shia factions. We are beginning to realize that it isn't just a case of we liberated the Shias from Saddam, and they will be eternally grateful. They're not. And I think what Samarra has done, that whole bombing, is that it has exposed all of these rifts and made a lot of Shias think, if they hadn't before, well, we can't count on the Americans to protect us. We can only count on our own people to protect us.

MANN: Well, in fact, the militias are emerging as a whole new force that a lot of people, leading up to the war in Iraq, never thought that the United States would have to worry about, the emergence of rival armies. We just heard him say 33 militias in that country. ARRAF: Wasn't is that extraordinary? We thought we only had to worry about a couple of dozen maybe. But no. After if you remember, after Bremer came in with the CPA, the chief civilian authority, the American administrator, one of his big things was we are going to disband the militias.

Now, they agreed the Peshmerga (ph), the Kurds, wouldn't have to disband. They then agreed that the main Shia militia would not have to disband. But now what we've seen are militias morphing into other militias. And if you are an Iraqi living in fear, you're going to put your faith in them.

MANN: The U.S. ambassador, Zalmay Khalilzad, said something quiet astonishing. He said, in fact, that the militias are more of a threat to the safety of Iraqis than the terrorists are.

ARRAF: I think if you look at it in the big picture, that is exactly right. Because if you're looking at long-term stability, there's maybe a chance that you can defeat the terrorists and the insurgents. Although a lot of that is political, not military.

But if you're talking about a place where the country is ruled by overlapping militias and if we're really talking about more than 30 of them, then there is no Iraq. This is a fight for the soul of Iraq, for the soul of the country.

MANN: One last question. What does this do for the prospect of the national unity government that Washington says is so crucial?

ARRAF: It's -- it is really crucial, and it's not just Washington. If you are going to make this hang together, what they have to do is really get a government in there that agrees. The interior ministry cannot be devoted to one specific party. They can't carve up key ministries. If they do, no Iraqi will ever believe in their police forces or their own security.

And it's absolutely crucial. I don't think it's lost yet. It's very, very tricky. And I think these next weeks and days are going to be absolutely key. I think there's still a chance.

MANN: Jane Arraf, still staying very close to the story. Now with the Council of Foreign Relations. Thanks so much for this.

ARRAF: Thank you.

VERJEE: Time for us to take a short break.

MANN: When YOUR WORLD TODAY continues, election upset in Ukraine. Voters send a clear message to their pro-Western president. Stay with us.

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VERJEE: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY on CNN International.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair says this is no time to quit the U.S.-led war in Iraq. He made the comments in the Australian capital, where, like at home, there are growing calls for troop withdrawal. He appeared before Australia's parliament to make growing demands for troop reductions from what's been a staunch coalition partner. Mr. Blair called for an international effort to safeguard shared values of fairness and freedom. Mr. Blair says also that substantial troop reductions are possible, but only when Iraqi forces are brought up to sustained speed.

MANN: Mr. Blair has tried to focus on foreign policy during the trip, but an answer to a domestic question drew just as much attention.

Angus Walker has a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANGUS WALKER, ITV NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An almost royal welcome, with a 19-gun salute for Tony Blair as he arrived in Canberra to make a speech to Australia's parliament. And as with the monarchy, he's been asked the abdication question: was it a mistake to say he'll be stepping down before the next election?

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: That was an unusual thing for me to say, but people kept asking me the question. And so I decided to answer it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it's unusual in this country. Of course, outside...

WALKER: Maybe that was a mistake, said Mr. Blair, as he was interrupted. Downing Street rushed to kill off any suggestion he had somehow changed his mind and wanted to stay on. His aides tried to keep the focus on foreign policy. In his speech, the prime minister called for a global alliance for the United States to defeat extremism.

BLAIR: I do not always agree with the United States. Sometimes they can be difficult friends to have. But the strain of, frankly, anti-American feeling in parts of European and world politics is madness when set against the long-term interests of the world we believe in.

WALKER: Australia's National War Memorial with its tributes to the dead of two world wars was a suitable back drop to Mr. Blair's call for global alliance to defeat terrorism, which he likened to the threat from the Nazis.

(on camera): Wherever Tony Blair goes, he's now asked when he's going. But any idea that by preannouncing his resignation, he stopped speculation about the exact departure date has simply backfired.

(voice-over): Downing Street accepts that situation and on this occasion has been forced to play down any Thatcher-like notion that Mr. Blair will go on and on.

Angus Walker, ITV News, Canberra. (END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: Ukrainian President Victor Yushenko has suffered a stunning blow in his country's parliamentary election.

VERJEE: It comes less than a year and a half after the Orange Revolution swept him to power. Half of the votes have tallied so far. In a surprising about face, the pro-Russian party of Victor Yanekovich is leading with just over 27 percent.

MANN: The liberal block, led by Yulia Tymoshanko is about four percentage points behind, and President Yushenko's Our Ukraine party is in third place with just over 16 percent.

VERJEE: A coalition government looks inevitable, but the president says such talk should wait until the vote count is complete.

MANN: Nigerian militants released three foreign oil workers after holding them hostage for five weeks. The three men, Americans Cody Oswald and Russell Spell and Briton John Hudspith, were said to be in good health after being turned over to the Nigerian government.

By email, the militants said the captives were released because keeping them, quote, is a distraction. They added that the hostage release does not signify an end to their attacks on the oil industry. The militants are fighting the industry for a greater share of Nigeria's oil wealth.

VERJEE: We're back in just a moment with your replies to today's inbox question.

MANN: This is YOUR WORLD TODAY on CNN International.

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VERJEE: It's time now to share some of the e-mails we've been getting from you. We've also been asking you your thoughts about immigration and immigrant labor, which has been an emotional and controversial topic here in the United States.

MANN: People are out on the streets on this day, essentially addressing the same issue we're asking you. Do illegal immigrants provide an essential labor pool for industrialized economies? In other words, do we need them, like it or not?

Buzz from California says, "No, they don't provide a needed part of the labor force. Americans, he says, would be happy to do a lot of those jobs, but employers have found they don't have to pay as much for illegal immigrants."

VERJEE: Udeme from Canada writes, "Though their status may be considered illegal by the U.S. immigration laws, their services are crucial to sustain the high production of the industrial American economy."

MANN: An anonymous viewer writes, "Illegal immigrants have now entered higher trade jobs that blue collar workers do want."

VERJEE: And finally, Christopher tells us, "Illegal immigrants provide a vast and essential labor force to the United States economy. If it collapsed, most smaller and labor intensive businesses would suffer a labor shortage."

MANN: It would, at the very least, be paying higher wages. A lot of working Americans feel they're subsidizing illegal labor because they have to accept lower wages because of the competition. It's a big controversy and we'll continue to keep our eye on the story as The U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee debates the contentious issue.

VERJEE: For our viewers in the United States, "LIVE FROM" with the lovely Kyra Phillips is next.

MANN: For the rest of you, YOUR WORLD TODAY continues right after a short break.

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