Return to Transcripts main page

Your World Today

Najaf Under Curfew After Bombing Near Shrine; Cynthia McKinney Apologizes Before House of Representatives; Pakistan and U.S. in Nuclear Talks

Aired April 06, 2006 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM CLANCY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: A car bomb rocks the city of Najaf in southern Iraq. Now the wait to see if the Shia Muslims respond.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The leaders of Ireland and the U.K. try to reenergize a northern Ireland peace process once again disrupted by violence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is swifter, higher, stronger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: As China prepares for the Olympics, many of its people are speaking in tongues.

GORANI: It is 7:00 p.m. in Najaf, Iraq, 5:00 p.m. in Dublin.

I'm Hala Gorani.

CLANCY: I'm Jim Clancy. And this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

GORANI: And we begin in Iraq, where the city of Najaf is under curfew after a bombing near the holiest Shiite shrine in Islam, as police try to keep anger there from spilling on to the streets.

There is good news on another front in the war against the insurgency.

Aneesh Raman joins us now from Baghdad with details.

Fears, presumably, Aneesh, that this will ignite sectarian tensions further.

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ignite sectarian tensions, Hala, and in doing so ignite fury among Iraq's Shia militias. But this, as you say, a day that saw both a push back against the insurgency as well as that insurgent attack that continues to try to bring Iraq into a civil war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RAMAN (voice over): A major catch. That's how the U.S. military is describing the capture last month of Abu Ayman, the head of an insurgent group with close ties to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Abu Ayman is also the principal suspect in the kidnapping of Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena last year and is thought to be behind some of the deadliest attacks against coalition and Iraqi forces.

With Abu Ayman in custody, the military is now pushing him for new intelligence, hoping, even expecting he'll cooperate

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a lack of specific quality inside the Zarqawi network. And that quality is loyalty. They tend to provide actual intelligence against their network and their leadership.

RAMAN: Intelligence that is desperately needed as the insurgency continues to try and force a civil war.

On Thursday, a car bomb detonated just outside Iraq's holiest Shia shrine in Iraq's holiest Shia city of Najaf. Nearly a dozen people killed, most worshipping at the Imam Ali Shrine. The anger here will undoubtedly spread further to the country's Shia militias, who are, by many accounts, the biggest threat to a stable Iraq.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people of Iraq and the government of Iraq have to get to the point where the only people carrying weapons are the people supposed to be carrying weapons as part of the Iraqi security force.

RAMAN: But with allegiance mixed and Iraqi security forces still not at full strength, Shia militia leaders say scenes like this are why they must protect themselves.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAMAN: But Hala, to disband the militias, you need a government. Now, nearly four months after election day, there is no Iraqi government formed, and many are saying that that power vacuum is helping to destabilize this country -- Hala.

GORANI: All right. Aneesh Raman, live in Baghdad -- Jim.

CLANCY: A major story breaking now out of Washington right now. According to court papers that were filed by prosecutors, I. Lewis Libby, Scooter Libby, who was a key man in the office of Vice President Dick Cheney, has alleged that U.S. President George W. Bush was the man who authorized the leaking of the name of a CIA operative and the wife of a former ambassador.

Now, that former CIA operator, Valerie Plame, was unmasked to journalists. There were accusations that this was done deliberately as payback because her husband had leaked -- had not leaked, but had challenged assertions by the Bush administration in the lead-up to the war in Iraq. Those related to efforts by Iraq, allegations that Iraq was trying to obtain nuclear material from Niger, and trying to buy yellow cake uranium from that source.

That was discounted by Valerie Plame's husband, and as a result of that challenge to the Bush administration at that period in time, it was said that her name was leaked out. This has caused a furor on Capitol Hill and among some people in the intelligence community. But at one period in time, President Bush addressed his cabinet and said that they were going to make an effort to find out who might have authorized that or who might have leaked out that information. But he said, you know how these things go on Capitol Hill, I don't know whether we'll ever find who is responsible.

What a turnaround, a stunning turnaround now as we are learning that one of the prosecutors has filed papers in that case saying that I. Lewis Libby, Scooter Libby, of Dick Cheney's office, saying there, alleging that it was the president himself that authorized the leaking of the fact that Valerie Plame was an operative with the CIA.

There are going to be major repercussions from this case. Once again, this is according to The Associated Press, saying that before his indictment, Libby was testifying to the grand jury, and saying that Cheney told him to pass on the information, and that it was Bush who authorized the leak.

Now, that is according to the court papers. There was a conversation between Libby and "The New York Times" reporter Judith Miller in that case, but Miller never reported on it.

It is not clear, then, what the line or trail was of that leak coming out. But, of course, it is against the law to leak out a CIA operative -- is, in fact, that, working for the CIA. That is what has made this case so serious.

But while many people were pointing a finger at senior aides to President Bush, no one had ever asserted that it might have been the president himself that authorized the leak. That is exactly what these papers are saying today.

We are going to be getting you some reaction, of course, from Capitol Hill as this bombshell drops and we assess just what the damage and the reaction is -- Hala.

GORANI: Absolutely following this story.

Now, moving to international news and a deadline in northern Ireland to close the chapter or close the book, the prime ministers of Britain and Ireland have announced a plan to recall northern Ireland's assembly in Belfast on May 15th. British Prime Minister Tony Blair and his Irish counterpart, Bertie Ahern, brokered the 1998 peace accord that called for a power-sharing agreement. Now, the body would have until late November to choose an actual administration led by democratic unionists and Sinn Fein or be dissolved.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: There can be no room for compromise or ambiguity on the commitment only to exclusively peaceful and democratic means. Political arguments are the only means of persuasion. That was set out clearly in the Belfast speech and remains. On the other hand, there can be no way forward that does not recognize the legitimate aspiration... (END VIDEO CLIP)

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to the House floor. This is Representative Cynthia McKinney, Democrat of Georgia, on the floor of the House. She's accused of striking an officer after he tried to stop her from entering a House office building back on March 29.

A grand jury is looking into possible criminal charges. McKinney claims this is a racial issue.

Let's listen in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gentlemen from Iowa is recognized.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Speaker, I ask unanimously consent that all members may have five legislative days in which to revise and extend the remarks on House Resolution 376, which the House is about to consider.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without objection...

KAGAN: Those comments were short. We missed a bit of them. So we're going to re-rack the tape and listen back.

Once again, Representative Cynthia McKinney on the House floor just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without objection, she is recognized for one minute.

REP. CYNTHIA MCKINNEY (D), GEORGIA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I come before this body to personally express again my sincere regret about the encounter with the Capitol Hill Police. I appreciate my colleagues who are standing with me who love this institution and who love this country.

There should not have been any physical contact in this incident. I have always supported law enforcement and will be voting for HR756, expressing my gratitude and appreciate to the professionalism and dedication of the men and women of the U.S. Capitol Police.

I am sorry that this misunderstanding happened at all, and I regret its escalation. And I apologize.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gentleman from Iowa is recognized.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Well, another apology from Cynthia McKinney. Those words sounding closer to the statement that she made right after the incident took place on March 29th, when she said she was sorry for any misunderstanding or confrontation that happened there.

Once again, as we understand it, Cynthia McKinney was trying to go inside of this House office building. She has a different hairstyle, she wasn't wearing her pin. The Capitol Hill Police officer did not recognize her, and what has gone from there has, as she said, escalated.

Let's bring in Jeffrey Toobin here.

Jeffrey, this seems like it's kind of going full circle, because first we heard an apology, then we heard allegations from Cynthia McKinney that this was a racial incident. Now it seems as a grand jury is actually investigating the incident, she's back to apology.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you've got to know when to hold and know when to fold, Daryn. You know, her position has been weak from the beginning, because she's never really said what happened.

In her now famous interview with Soledad O'Brien yesterday, she simply would not say what happened. And the only version of the facts that are out there is that she really behaved inappropriately and perhaps criminally with this police officer.

So, I think she's recognizing the writing on the wall, that contrition, rather than defiance, is the way to try to get out of this trouble. And it's no guarantee that will be good enough.

KAGAN: So there is a grand jury that has subpoenaed two Capitol Hill aides that witnessed the confrontation. How serious possibly in terms of crime, Jeff, are we talking about?

TOOBIN: Oh, it's definitely serious. I mean, this is potentially a felony. It's not a jail felony, but it's certainly potentially a felony.

Hitting a police officer is a serious crime, even if the officer is not injured. So, you know, she's looking at potential felony charges. And that -- that concentrates the mind. And obviously she seems to be investing her legal strategy and political strategy on the fly.

KAGAN: As she goes. All right. Well, we'll be watching to see if the apology did the trick or if any charges come out of this.

Jeff, thanks for being available like that. We appreciate it.

And we'll go ahead and rejoin CNN International in progress.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

JIM BOULDEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ... in pounds stolen from a bank in Belfast. There's punishment beatings, there's reprisals, and most people think that the murder of Denis Donaldson was a reprisal for his time as a British spy. And these things continue to go on. And both prime ministers said we cannot let people who do this in order to stop the peace process, cannot let them win. We must get the two parties together, put beyond their differences, try to focus on the similarities. And the similarities are that both sides have said that they want a democratic process and that they want local government.

The problem is, they just don't like to sit with each other in government. They've tried it twice before. In the eight years since the Good Friday agreement, we have only had two years of local power- sharing in this -- in this province in northern Ireland.

It's just become so difficult. That's why the two governments have said, look, here's your headline. Get together in mid-May, try to has out an agreement, but we're going to give you a deadline, we're not going to let it go on year in and year out.

CLANCY: All right. Jim Boulden there reporting to us from Belfast in northern Ireland.

And this programming note for international viewers. Coming up here on CNN, Jim interviewed Ireland's prime minister, Bertie Ahern. You can hear interview at 21:00 hours Greenwich Mean Time.

GORANI: Now, prosecutors told the jury in the sentencing trial of Zacarias Moussaoui that it's time for them to "hear the voices" of September 11th victims. Prosecutors are asking the jury to give Moussaoui the death penalty for his part in those attacks. The defense says Moussaoui is delusional and will ask the jury to give him life in prison without possibility of parole.

The first prosecution witness to take the stand was former New York major Rudolph Giuliani.

We will bring you a live report from Washington as soon as the court breaks for lunch. And that's going to happen in the next half hour.

You're with YOUR WORLD TODAY. Stay with us. A lot more ahead after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY here on CNN International.

GORANI: Now, we're going to take you to France. The embattled prime minister there says he will press on with the fight over a youth jobs law that has drawn millions of protesters to the streets. But there is growing speculation that the uproar could cause Dominique de Villepin is job.

CLANCY: President Jacques Chirac promising there are going to be changes in that employment measure, compromises, if you will. Government officials are meeting with labor leaders over possible amendments. GORANI: Now, the measure became law on Sunday, but the government has urged employers just not to implement those laws until changes have been made. Trade unions say they are giving the government until April 15th to repeal the law.

Millions of protesters have demonstrated against that jobs legislation over the past two weeks. On Thursday, students blocked a shipment of airplane parts and disrupted traffic at train stations in Paris and northern France.

CLANCY: Now, the labor leaders say that they don't want it modified. They want it pulled entirely. The law at the heart of all of this is aimed on one side, they say, at boosting employment by making it easier for employers to hire and fire young workers. It allows those employers to fire workers under the age of 26 during the first two years o the job without stating a reason.

GORANI: As the uproar grows steadily louder, some observers say the prime minister has been -- is not only at risk of losing his job, but that he's been sidelined by those who have supported him the most up until now.

CLANCY: And have the rug pulled out from under him. Negotiations going on with the interior minister instead of with the prime minister.

Jim Bitterman gives us now a look at the impact of the jobs law controversy on the man, Dominique de Villepin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Even while their leaders were in talks with the politicians, French students were out on hit-and-run raids, blocking railroad tracks and roads to keep up the pressure on the government. None of the disruption was very serious, but it was a clear reminder that students and unions want the repeal of a controversial employment law by April 17th.

The beleaguered prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, and several members of his cabinet insist they will continue in office and continue the battle to reduce youth unemployment, now running at some 22 percent. De Villepin's approval rating has sunk to 28 percent, but asked if he submitted his resignation to President Jacques Chirac, he put it this way...

DOMINIQUE DE VILLEPIN, FRENCH PRIME MINISTER (through translator): The president has given me a mission, and I will carry out that mission to the very end. All the rest is pure speculation and fantasy.

BITTERMANN: He added it depended on the whole population to ensure that France remains a country of hope and ambition.

The finance minister said that so far the protests have caused no real economic damage, but there's a clear worry about the country's image. An image that the foreign minister told CNN might be misunderstood.

PHILIPPE DOUSTE-BLAZY, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): Every time there is reform in France, there is political discussion. The French are, by definition, very outspoken and very turbulent. We always have been and will always be. But all of this is unfolding in a good humor way.

BITTERMANN (on camera): The good humor in recent events is perhaps a matter of perspective. But it's difficult to deny they're as serious politically as the government faces mounting and direct questions about its continued existence.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: We're going to take a short break. When we come back, a check of world markets.

GORANI: Higher oil prices send Wall Street lower, as they often do. We'll get a live update.

That and more after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Welcome back.

We want to make an important correction to our earlier reporting on those court papers, complicated (INAUDIBLE) that were filed relating to Scooter Libby's testimony to a grand jury. We erroneously reported that the court filing said the president gave permission to leak the name of CIA operative Valerie Plame to reporters. That wasn't the case. In fact, the court filing said the leak concerned sensitive information, intelligence information about Iraq.

Now, for more on this story, let's go up to CNN's David Ensor. He's been covering this leak investigation since the beginning.

And frankly, David, I got it wrong there trying to read this story on short notice and sort it out. What does -- what do the court papers actually say?

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: What is actually going on, Jim, is a struggle between the defendant, who is I. Lewis Libby, Scooter Libby, the former chief of staff of the vice president, and the prosecutor over how much information the defense can get declassified to use in the case.

Mr. Libby wants access to PDBs, presidential intelligence documents that he gets every day. He wants access to quite a few of them in order to show something about Mr. Libby's pace of work and so forth and help defend himself against the charge that he may have concealed information about this case from a grand jury.

What -- what the most recent document and the one that we're talking about here is the government's response to the defendant, Mr. Libby's request for an effort to get these documents out. And in it -- and I'm going to quote here -- the government says that "The vice president thought" -- Vice President Cheney -- "thought that it was very important for the key judgments of the NIE" -- and that's the National Intelligence Estimate about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction -- "to come out. The defendant further testified that he had first advised the vice president that he could not have this conversation with reporter Miller" -- that would be Judy Miller of "The New York Times" -- "because of the classified nature of the NIE. The defendant testified that the vice president later advised him that the president had authorized the defendant to discuss the relevant portions of the NIE."

So what's involved here, Jim, is that this document from the government says that the vice president informed Mr. Libby that the president himself had authorized Mr. Libby to leak certain information or give out certain information that came out of this document, this National Intelligence Estimate, on what the intelligence community thought Iraq had in the way of weapons of mass destruction. So, it had nothing to do with Valerie Plame-Wilson's name. It was simply about this matter of intelligence in the lead-up to the war.

And in that matter, the president, according to this document, authorized Mr. Libby to give out some information to Judy Miller. And by the way, he is legally entitled to do so.

If the president decides to declassify information, he has that legal right. So, it's not about a law being broken here, and it's not about Valerie Plame-Wilson's name. But it does show us the first evidence that the president himself wanted some of this information put out in the media.

CLANCY: Well, at the time, if you go back to that period in time, there was a clamor from not only the media, but from a lot of Americans that wanted more information, more details about what were, up to that point, rather vague statements at times by diplomats trying to assess just what was the threat there. So this was seen -- would this be normal business in Washington, really?

ENSOR: I'm afraid so, yes. And, you know, after all, the -- Ambassador Wilson -- Ambassador Wilson being Valerie Plame-Wilson's husband -- had put out a piece in which he said -- in which he attacked the administration for suggesting Iraq was going after uranium in Africa. The administration wanted to highlight certain parts of this until then classified document that suggested that Iraq was aggressively pursuing some aspects of a nuclear weapons program, was looking for ways of getting uranium.

And so, they wanted to have that evidence out there to help their care in the run-up to war. Selective leaking authorized at the highest level, that's -- I'm afraid that is business as usual in Washington. It's been practiced by Republicans and Democrats alike.

CLANCY: All right. David Ensor, can't thank you enough. I'm glad you straightened all of that out. A rather complicated way that you have to understand what is going on and what is being said precisely in the grand jury.

David, as always, thank you very much.

And a final apology to you. We had been obviously erroneous earlier and we do apologize for that -- Hala.

All right. We're going to take a break somebody told me. So let's do it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Jim Clancy.

GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani. Here's some of the top stories we're following for you this hour.

The U.S. military says a key insurgent leader in Iraq has been captured. It says Mohammed Hila Hammad Obeidi was detained last month, but the news was delayed until DNA testing confirmed his identity. Now, Obeidi is said to have strong ties with the head of al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al Zarqawi. He's also accused of masterminding several kidnappings, including that of the Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena.

CLANCY: Police in the Iraqi city of Najaf imposing a curfew after a car bombing killed at least ten people and wounded dozens of others. The bomb going off near the Imam Ali mosque, the holiest shrine in Shia Islam. The attack raising fears once again of further sectarian violence in Iraq.

GORANI: Also in the headlines around the world, the prime ministers of Britain and Ireland have announced a plan to recall Northern Ireland's assembly on May 15th. British Prime Minister Tony Blair, his counterpart Bertie Ahearn, brokered the 1998 peace accord that called for a power sharing government there. The body would have until late November to choose an administration.

CLANCY: A new study says child pornography is one of the fastest grows businesses on the Internet. It's a multibillion dollar industry, but only a handful of countries have laws strong enough to really be considered able to fight that crime. The studies by two centers for missing and exploited children found more than half of 184 interpole countries have no laws on child pornography. The five countries with strongest laws are Australia, Belgium, France, South Africa and the United States. The centers says legislation should include a definition of child pornography, criminal penalties that cover Internet use and distribution, as well as reporting requirements for Internet service providers.

GORANI: Well, the president of the International Center for Missing and Exploited says the problem is exploding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERNIE ALLEN, CHILD ADVOCATE: Child pornography today is a $20 billion industry, and it's growing. And, so, what we have done is enlisted the involvement of the major credit card companies, major banks, the Internet industry leaders in a financial coalition, the goal of which is to eradicate commercial child pornography by 2008. We're going to follow the money, we're going to identify these illegal sites, we're going to work with the financial industry to stop the payments and shut it down. We've got to take the profitability out of this insidious practice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: The Internet is considered the perfect hunting ground for child predators and pornographers. How can you protect your children from the people that want to exploit them?

Our Gary Tuchman went to search for some answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): We tell our children to respect their teachers. In Delaware, though, police allege this teacher, Rachel Holt, had sex with a 13-year-old student 28 times during one week this past March.

We tell our children to be courteous to adults. Carlie Brucia's trust may have cost her her life.

ANGELA LAKIN, CARLIE BRUCIA'S AUNT: It's hard to describe the pain that is felt without having to feel so much loss.

TUCHMAN: We tell our children the Internet is a wonderful teaching tool, but perhaps we aren't putting enough emphasis on this opinion.

CHIEF JIM MURRAY, PEACHTREE CITY, GA. POLICE: The Internet was the best thing they every invented for child molesters.

TUCHMAN: Jim Murray is the chief of the Peachtree City, Georgia, Police Department, which has started an aggressive Internet task force for predators.

Don't talk to strangers is age old advice in the real world, but it's the same advice in the cyber space world.

MURRAY: By the time you say to your 13-year-old daughter, I'm going to go in and make you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and by the time you bring it back, a pedophile could contact your child and steal their innocence away that quickly.

TUCHMAN: We watched the task force in action.

CAPTAIN ROSANNA DUBB (ph): Do you want to chat?

TUCHMAN: Captain Rosanna Dubb (ph) goes into a chat room and says she's a 14-year-old girl named "GA Peach." Adult men swarm to the site, including a man who calls himself "hotguy" from Texas. He asks if she's single.

(on camera): Are you single? I mean, obviously, you're 14, right?

TUCHMAN: He keeps asking her what she would like to do and then he types this.

DUBB: All right. Here we go. He says he's going to lift my shirt.

TUCHMAN: The officer plays along. It's the only way to catch most of these people.

DUBB: He says rub yourself and I'm going to say "Oh, kewl."

TUCHMAN: And with those comments, police say "hotguy" has committed a crime.

MURRAY: He could be arrested. He could get up to 10 years in the state penitentiary.

TUCHMAN: Every time she logs on to a new chat site as "GA Peach," men are talking to her within seconds.

(on camera): This guy is 28 and you've said you're 14, tells you that he likes kinky, dominate girls.

DUBB: Correct.

MURRAY: We've had as many as 15, 16, 17 hits at one time trying to have a conversation with what they think is a 14-year-old child.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Police arrest many of these people after face-to-face rendezvous are set up. So when it comes to the Internet, this advice.

MURRAY: Put it in a room where it's in a family room and only allow your children on it when you are there. Get blocking devices so you can block places you don't want your children to go. And get tracking software so you can go back and check every conversation that your child has.

TUCHMAN: Tell your child never to give personal information over the net and to stay out of chat rooms. Banning the Internet is an option for some. But for those who don't do that, the chief says you should bluntly tell your children the Internet is fertile ground for predator.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, Peachtree City, Georgia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: Now, that's a question many parents have. Because computers are everywhere. They're not only in the common areas, they're also in kids' rooms, and you may be asking yourself the question, how safe your children are when they use that. Let's ask the question, then, to you, at ywt@CNN.com.

CLANCY: Are you concerned about your child's vulnerability on the Internet? Share with us, what are you doing about it, are your thoughts? And share them with all of our viewers who -- we're going to read some of these out on the air here. And...

GORANI: It will really be interesting to see throughout the world if there are regional differences, you know. What people think in Europe versus what they think in the U.S. Ywt@cnn.com.

CLANCY: All the experts saying this is not a U.S. problem, this is not a developed country problem. This kind of a problem can come up anywhere, unhappily.

GORANI: Absolutely.

CLANCY: All right, the U.S. has proposed a landmark plan to share civilian nuclear technology with India. But Pakistan has obviously been left out of this nuclear equation, and it has real concerns about it. A little bit earlier today, we brought that matter up, along with some other issues with Pakistan's prime minister Shaukat Aziz.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHAUKAT AZIZ, PAKISTANI PRIME MINISTER: Islamabad feels that this initiative can be enveloped in a nuclear estranged regime which allows reduction -- production of fissile material for all of South Asia, India and Pakistan.

As you know, both countries' energy needs are growing. Pakistan's company is growing at 6 to 8 percent a year. Our energy needs are very acute. And we believe that if we can have more avenues of peaceful production of nuclear energy under IAEA safeguards and guidelines to meet our growing electricity needs, that will be good for Pakistan and good for the region.

We believe a nuclear restraint regime around this whole issue will help control production of fissile material in South Asia and lead to lowering of tensions and peace.

CLANCY: U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice talked to U.S. lawmakers about the deal with India. Let's listen for a moment to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The initiative that we are before you and asking for legislation to amend the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 will advance international security, enhance energy security, further environmental protection and increase business opportunities for both our countries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: Now, in that statement, of course, there is no mention of Pakistan. If the U.S. goes through with a bilateral deal between New Dehli and Washington, what effect does Pakistan see it having in the region? AZIZ: Well, as I said, we think Pakistan's needs are very similar, and we would like this opportunity to be used to come up with a nuclear restraint environment, which will be helpful for containing production of fissile material. And, we have made this position clear to the U.S. administration and we hope that as things progress, we will continue our discussions.

CLANCY: But Mr. Bush, I think, has made it clear that Pakistan is not going to get the same kind of a package deal that is being offered to India, is being decided by lawmakers right. And I'm wondering if Pakistan has rethought some of the reasons for that. A.Q. Khan, the nuclear scientist, a Pakistani, who is said to have proliferated nuclear technology to North Korea, Libya and Iran, has yet to be questioned by anyone outside Pakistan. The U.S. wants to talk with him. Why not?

AZIZ: Well, the A.Q. Khan episode is pretty much over from our perspective. We have shared whatever information we could with all stakeholders. We think that was an individual act. Since then, Pakistan has strengthened its whole nuclear regime.

We have a very effective command and control and export control system, and Pakistan's nuclear program is very open in the sense that the part which relates to the electricity production -- we are already into producing electricity through nuclear power, and we want to expand that to meet our growing needs. But we consider the A.Q. Khan chapter as closed.

CLANCY: Nuclear experts do not. They believe that besides the three countries that I just mentioned, that there is a fourth set of nuclear technology that was advanced from A.Q. Khan to another party. Is there any information on that?

AZIZ: There is no such information, and I think that these are all speculations. We have interrogated and investigated this matter from all its dimensions...

CLANCY: Why not let the CIA talk to A.Q. Khan?

AZIZ: ... and we think the whole issue is closed.

CLANCY: Why not let the CIA then talk to A.Q. Khan?

AZIZ: Well,, we think that we are very capable of investigating matters and talking to our own citizens, and we do not see any further need to do that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: All right. And that was the Pakistani prime minister there.

Now moving to this story, U.S. jurors heard some emotional testimony, to say the least, in the sentencing phase of the Zacarias Moussaoui trial just outside Washington. They've already found him guilty of conspiring in the September 11th attacks. Now the decision is, will he die or will he be sentenced to life in prison?

Kelli Arena joins us with more on what to expect from this testimony and what we've heard already -- Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, I have been covering this story for four-and-a-half years, and I know, I mean, I know what they're going to say, but still, your stomach just gets into a knot as you're listening and watching video again as what happened on September 11th.

Rudy Giuliani, the former mayor of New York City, was asked to describe the scene that day. He said, I'm not sure that I can describe it. It was a horror. It was the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. There were fires, there were body parts, hands and legs everywhere, injured people bleeding, crying, unbelievable.

During this testimony, Zacarias Moussaoui was interesting to watch. There were times when he would nod in agreement with the prosecutor, when they talked about the losses that New York City suffered in times of personnel, and equipment and buildings, and the list was endless. And other times he would smile to himself and laugh. And then, alternately, he looked very bored and was yawning and was putting his head in his hands.

The jury was very stonefaced through a lot of this testimony. During some video of people jumping out of the World Trade Center buildings, they had put their hands over their mouths watching. But besides that, very nonemotional, very stonefaced.

Victim's family members, though, were in the courtroom, many of them brought to tears. Just before we took this break, Giuliani was talking about bodies that had vaporized. About half of the families never got any remains, not a hand, nothing to bury, and that really did seem to upset the family members that were in there, everyone in that courtroom.

Of course, what the government is trying to do is get Moussaoui sentenced to death. His defense team argued earlier in its opening statements that he is a schizophrenic, that he had a very troubled childhood, that there are certain mitigating factors that may warrant life in prison.

As a matter of fact, I was in the elevator with one of the victim's family members, and two of the defense lawyers. And she turned around and said to them, you know, I want you to know that we understand that you are doing your job, we don't hate you, and it's important that you know that. And there was a very emotional response from both of those defense attorneys. You know, it's just unbelievably disturbing, this whole day. Very disturbing.

GORANI: Kelli, a quick question of the death penalty. Some victims families actually say they don't think Zacarias Moussaoui should be put to death. What are the reasons, some of the reasons they have for that, in the face of all this gut-wrenching testimony and all these memories of 9/11 resurfacing again? ARENA: Well, lots of different reasons. Some believe that that would just make him a martyr for the cause, and they don't want to see that happen. Others just don't believe in it as a matter of principle. Others will say that he should not be the focus. One family member I heard this morning saying that he's just an al Qaeda wannabe, and that the focus really should be on making sure that the United States is secure and safe.

Then again, you have people who think that he should be put to death, that he deserves the death penalty. So it really does run the gamut. Check out what society things and you've got a representation of society. There are nearly 3,000 people that died in these attacks. And so you're going to hear just about every opinion there is to hear on the matter.

GORANI: All right, live from Alexandria, Virginia, Kelli Arena. Thanks very much, Kelli.

We have a lot more ahead here on YOUR WORLD TODAY. We're going to switch gears. It happened long -- and I mean long -- ago.

CLANCY: That's right,, a fish decided to try its chances on land. We'll talk about landing this fossil when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY.

CLANCY: Now scientists have reeled in a catch that fills in an evolutionary gap between water and land mammals.

GORANI: Now a 375-million-year-old fish with almost a full set of fingers. The fossil has the fins and scales of fish, but the crocodile-like skull, neck and ribs of a land animal. The creature is being hailed as an evolutionary breakthrough, revealing the transition between fish and land vertebrae.

CLANCY: Now probably incorrectly, now This has been called a half fish, half amphibian fossil. It was found in Canadian territory almost 1,000 kilometers north of the Arctic Circle. It's almost perfectly preserved. Scientists, to say the least, are excited.

GORANI: So what does this mean for science, for the debate over evolution? We are joined by the professor at the University of Chicago, who helped led the team of scientists behind this astounding find.

Neil Shubin chairs the biology department there.

Professor Shubin, welcome. Thanks for being us.

Tell us exactly what we found. So e have an animal that was found, and parts of the skeleton of the fossil of this animal prove that it navigated on land.

NEIL SHUBIN, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: Yes, what we found is a very remarkable fossil. The fossil is a creature that blurs the distinction between a fish that lived in water and an animal that was able to crawl around on land.

Like a fish, it had scales on its back. It had fin webbing. So you'd recognize true fins on it.

But remarkably, when you take that fin webbing off and you look inside it, what you find are bones that compare directly to our upper arm, our forearm, even wrist.

And when you look even in more detail, what you find is that the thing was able to do a funny sort of fish-like pushup.

GORANI: All right, a fishlike pushup, it's called Titaalik Rosae (ph). Am I pronouncing it correctly?

SHUBIN: That's correct. You've got it.

GORANI: Great. First try.

So tell us, Do we know that this is the link, or do we think it's one of the potential missing links?

SHUBIN: It's very close to the link. I mean, there's no doubt that this creature with its flat head, with its eyes on top, with its early neck, with its ribs, with its limb-like fins, is very, very close, if not directly there on the transition between fish and land- living animal.

GORANI: So really a crucial discovery?

SHUBIN: It is. I mean, when you think about this, what we're dealing with is one of the major events of the history of life on Earth, the shift of life from water to land. And what we have is an important new window on that transition, and what it tells us is the sequence of stages by which life evolved to walk on land.

Now this is not some indirect branch in the history of branch, some esoteric thing. This is part of a major trunk, because basically what evolved here are all animals with limbs, including amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals, including us.

GORANI: Evolution, when you look at it, there's always -- evolutionary trends will respond to needs that creatures need to fulfill, need to meet. Right? What was it, then, in this case, do you think that created this shift that this water-based animal slowly evolved into an animal that could walk on land?

SHUBIN: Yes, that's a good question. Really, what I think is driving this is a couple of things. The first is, these little streams that we find these fossils in, the ancient streams, I should say, are very hostile environments.

Almost everything is a predator. You have giant predators, maybe 10 to 15 feet long with giant fangs. So, I think one reason why fish evolved to live in the shallows or even partially on land is to get away from these large fish that would eat them.

The other thing that would be good for them on land, is there's lots of new food. Some of the earliest kind of insects are on land, so big, juicy bites to eat. So you're getting away from the predators and you're actually getting towards ...

GORANI: A good meal.

SHUBIN: Exactly.

GORANI: Professor Shubin, one quick, last question. What does it tell us about our own human evolution? Anything?

SHUBIN: Yes, when you're looking at this fish, you're look looking at -- and you're looking at the wrist of this fish, when you're looking at the ribs of this fish, when you looking at the necks of this fish, you're seeing the early evolutionary stages of our wrists, our necks, our ribs. This is a real deep part of our evolutionary past. That part of our past, when we were fish.

GORANI: Did you give it a name? This was -- we have the scientific name, Tiktaalik roseae. Does visit a first name?

SHUBIN: No, we were too excited at the time to even think that way.

GORANI: You have to come up with one. All right, thank you very much, Professor Neil Shubin of the University of Chicago for joining us here and YOUR WORLD TODAY.

SHUBIN: Thank you.

CLANCY: I don't know about him. I mean, I looked at that fossil closely. I don't look a thing like him.

GORANI: All right. Absolutely.

CLANCY: YOUR WORLD TODAY continues after a short break.

GORANI: And when we come back, we'll open the "Inbox." We'll share some of your e-mails. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: All right, it's time to open up our "Inbox," Hala.

GORANI: Now, our question was, and there we are, "Are you concerned about child's vulnerability on the Internet?

Remigiuaz in Poland says, "The truth is, nobody is safe online nowadays, even adults."

CLANCY: Now, we get this in from Paul in Romania. He writes: "All governments should require all porn sites to end with the suffix .xxx so that filtering software can filter out all of these objectionable sites." GORANI: Curtis from California writes: "The advice to place your computer in a public part of hour home, monitor your children, and setting strict rules with your children is not just good advice, it's vital."

CLANCY: That is very important information, to put it in a common area where the parents can be there and see what's going on all the time.

GORANI: And this reminder, you can always go to our Web site for more on the news stories you see on CNN. CNN.com/international

CLANCY: You can also logon to watch a selection of free video, right on your desktop. And depending on where you live, you can subscribe to our new Pipeline broadband service to view live news events or browse our video archive and watch the news when you want to.

GORANI: Well, we're going to have a lot more ahead in the coming hour. For viewers in the United States, "LIVE FROM" is next.

CLANCY: Also, right here, YOUR WORLD TODAY continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com