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Your World Today

President Bush Comments on Phone Database Report; Should the U.S. Deal Directly With Tehran?; Crisis In Darfur

Aired May 11, 2006 - 11:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: It doesn't look like the president is going to answer any questions today, making a brief statement in response to a story that's gathered steam since it appeared on the front page of "USA Today".
The president going back to some familiar themes as he has tackled this subject before, saying that he, after 9/11, he did authorize the NSA to intercept international communication between suspected terrorists and al Qaeda contacts. He insists that these intelligence activities are lawful and he says he is concerned and does believe in protecting the privacy of ordinary Americans. Also going back to the theme that believing that leaks of these intelligence programs are hurting efforts to keep Americans safe.

Let's got back to our White House correspondent, Ed Henry.

Ed, did you hear anything new in what the president had to say?

HENRY: Not really too much new, but I think the president did try to make a distinction there that is important to make here, which is that when he said that privacy is being protected, that the government is not "mining or trolling," what this "USA Today" story is suggesting is the domestic phone records are being collected, not that domestic calls are being listened to, not that there's eavesdropping of those domestic calls.

That's a very important point there. The president referring to that in at least one or two occasions there in the four points that he laid out.

Another point that he talked about in terms of -- you can hear a helicopter over me now, but -- the president taking off -- but the congressional consultation, that is in dispute. A lot of Democrats on the Hill insisting that they have not gotten the full details, that they've been briefed but not fully.

And finally, I was starting to say a moment ago about this new White House team, Josh Bolten, the chief of staff, has made it a point that he wants to improve relations with Capitol Hill, as David Ensor has been noting.

There could be a bumpy road for General Hayden. There are going to be a lot of sharp questions, and there are a lot of senior Republicans like the speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, complaining that they were not really consulted about the Hayden nomination before it was made. And that is a slip-up for this White House because Josh Bolten has insisted he wants to have better outreach to Capitol Hill -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Let's bring our David Ensor back in.

Another -- the final point that the president makes, that he believes just how important these types of programs are, saying there has not been another major terrorist attack on U.S. soil.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right. And the White House clearly feels that's one of its best points. And certainly, it deserves credit for the fact that it's managed to stop any kind of attacks.

So I think the sense one gets from officials in the government is that they are ready to defend the actions they have taken. They're not confirming the specifics in this story. But the idea that the telecom companies are cooperating closely with the government on national security is not new.

And as Ed said, the story is that they're collecting the data, the phone numbers that we all make telephone calls to. Not that they are mining, listening in, and so on.

So this is a rather more limited tool in some ways. What's -- what's remarkable about it and is getting all the attention today is that it covers all of us, except customers of Qwest.

KAGAN: Yes. Good P.R. for Qwest today.

ENSOR: Yes.

KAGAN: Definitely for that.

Let's bring in our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider.

Bill, what do you make out of what the president had to say, even the fact that he took the time to say it when he was headed to the Gulf Coast, his 12th visit since Hurricane Katrina hit?

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, this is definitely going to ratchet up the level of controversy because it does affect ordinary Americans.

When the original story came out in December about the monitoring of international calls, most Americans didn't feel particularly threatened. The president gave assurances these were only calls overseas, they were only communications with suspected al Qaeda terrorists.

And now ordinary Americans are learning that if they live in an effected area, which is some 200 million Americans, that the government has a record of every phone call they made. Just the number they called, not the content of the conversation. But that, to most Americans, is going to sound like invasion of privacy.

What does this has to do with al Qaeda or terrorists?

KAGAN: And Andrea Koppel is on Capitol Hill.

Andrea, we'll be with you in just a minute.

But once again, President Bush coming out just minutes ago and making comments about this report that the NSA has this massive database of American's phone calls.

Let's listen in one more time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: First, our intelligence activities strictly target al Qaeda and their known affiliates. Al Qaeda is our enemy, and we want to know their plans.

Second, the government does not listen to domestic phone calls without court approval.

Third, the intelligence activities I authorized are lawful and have been briefed to appropriate members of Congress, both Republican and Democrat.

Fourth, the privacy of ordinary Americans is fiercely protected in all our activities. We're not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: And we want to go to Capitol Hill now. Andrea Koppel talking about that point he makes about how members of Congress have been briefed on this, the idea that, look, I'm not out here alone on this, Congress knows about it, Congress has approved of it. Even just how the White House and Capitol Hill interpret the briefing has been a point of contention -- Andrea.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It has. And, in fact, we have seen some of the senior Democrats who were involved in getting those briefings. Among them, Nancy Pelosi, the minority leader, as well as the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Rockefeller, basically kind of -- you can see them incredibly frustrated with the fact they're not able to talk more about the depth of those briefings, saying that, in fact, they weren't necessarily as thorough as perhaps the White House is indicating.

Nevertheless, Daryn, we are seeing just in the last several hours Democrats pouncing on this issue. We have seen Democrat Leahy, Patrick Leahy, who is the top Democrat on the Judiciary Committee, sort of throwing up his hands in the air and saying this is absolutely outrageous. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: We need to know what our government is doing in its activities to spy upon Americans. If we're unwilling to do this and unwilling to require these answers, then this Congress, this Republican leadership, ought to admit they have failed in their responsibility to the American government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: Now, Patrick Leahy was not alone on the Judiciary Committee in venting on this issue. We had the chairman himself, Arlen Specter, a Republican, saying that he is going to call hearings, he's going to call some of the major telecoms to Capitol Hill to give more explanation.

Nevertheless, Arlen Specter was sort of one of the lone Republicans who was calling the administration on the mat. What we did hear much more of was a defense of this program, as we heard President Bush laying it out just a few moments ago.

Here is Republican Jon Kyl of Arizona.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JON KYL (R), ARIZONA: This is nuts. We are in a war. And we have got to collect intelligence on the enemy. And you can't tell the enemy in advance how you're going to do it. And discussing all of this stuff in public leads to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: This is real-time potential fallout, Daryn, on the nomination of General Hayden to head up the CIA. As you know, he's been making the rounds up here on the Hill all week long, trying to persuade members. And it looked like he really was making inroads, addressing those two key questions, his military background, and, of course, his role in developing this controversial NSA warrantless wiretap program.

You can bet, and we're already hearing it today, that some of those who were leaning towards the nomination now are going to be raising some very sharp and pointed questions about whether or not, in fact, General Hayden would be the right man for the job, depending on how he answers those questions next week when he comes before the Senate Intelligence Committee -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Andrea, thank you.

We want to bring Bill Schneider back in to look at some poll numbers that actually are from back in February. But an interesting glimpse on just what Americans think about the wiretapping issue, and as Democrats try to take hold of this.

A question here. Is the public split -- question , "As you may know, the Bush administration has been wiretapping telephone conversations between U.S. citizens living in the U.S. and suspected terrorists living in other countries without getting a court order allowing it to do so. Do you think the Bush administration was right or wrong in obtaining these wiretapping conversations without a court order?"

"Did they break the law, did they not?" Forty-nine percent, 47 percent.

And when asked if they were concerned about it, again, right or wrong, 47, 50 percent.

So here is an issue that, not surprisingly, as much of America is split on so many political issues, might not be such a huge opportunity for Democrats.

SCHNEIDER: That's not about what was revealed in the "USA Today" article today. That was about what was revealed by "The New York Times" in December.

That is about phone calls between Americans and people overseas who are suspected terrorists. When you discuss -- when you mention those conditions, overseas phone calls, suspected terrorists or links to al Qaeda, then what you get, rather surprisingly, is a divided public, because people are not sure how they feel about that. But most ordinary Americans believe that doesn't mean me.

I don't make phone calls to suspected terrorists. Very few Americans make phone calls overseas. So that's a very, very different story.

I think the question raised by this issue is, why does the government have complete records of every phone call that I have made inside of the United States to my Aunt Minnie or anybody else, and what is it going to do with that information? The president just said we are not mining or trolling for the information about the personal lives of Americans.

What are they doing with it?

KAGAN: Very interesting. And he also makes the point -- the president says that -- he says all the intelligence activities that he's approved are lawful. Interesting loophole there, because nothing has come through the courts here.

SCHNEIDER: That's...

KAGAN: Because -- because no case -- no one has been arrested using publicly this evidence.

SCHNEIDER: Yes.

KAGAN: And so there's really no way -- it's kind of a catch-22. There's really no way to prove whether it's lawful or not.

SCHNEIDER: Well, that's right. There are many who argue it is not lawful.

The attorney general was before the House Judiciary Committee last month. And when he was asked about whether the international surveillance program was or was not lawful, according to "USA Today," his reply was, "I wouldn't rule it out."

Now, whether he thought the White House has legal authority to monitor domestic -- I'm sorry, that's domestic -- traffic without a warrant, he said, "I wouldn't rule it out."

There's a debate over whether it's lawful or not. It hasn't made its way through the courts. But I should point out, there's at least one senator, a Democratic senator, who is talking about censuring President Bush, has a motion to do precisely that because he believes the president has violated the law.

KAGAN: Let's move on to the White House. President Bush is leaving -- actually, has just left moments ago for the Gulf Coast. He is headed to the Gulf Coast area. His 12th time since Hurricane katrina.

But let's talk about with Ed Henry what's coming up next week and how this information in this report could affect the president's choice to take over the CIA.

HENRY: Well, you're right, Daryn. The timing of this latest disclosure is rather remarkable in the sense that this is going to be -- it's happening right on the eve of General Hayden's confirmation hearings kicking off next week to be CIA director.

The White House already dealing with a very mixed reception among Republicans, never mind the Democrats, on Capitol Hill. I mentioned earlier Speaker Dennis Hastert angry that he was not consulted before this nomination was made. The House Intelligence chairman, Pete Hoekstra, some very strong comments against General Hayden.

Important to note, though, those are senior Republicans in the House. This will take place and play out in the Senate. But there are still some questions about what kidn of support General Hayden will have from Senate Republicans.

And there was quite a bit of chatter a couple of hours ago here in Washington about the fact that General Hayden had a meeting scheduled with Republican Senator Rick Santorum, a member of the leadership, one of these courtesy calls we see all the time with Supreme Court nominees or CIA nominees. And there was a lot of speculation that perhaps the White House was pulling General Hayden back, concerned that he is so identified with this domestic surveillance program that they were not going to have him before the cameras today.

I can tell you, at least one senior administration official insisting to me that, in fact, they're trying to reschedule this meeting with Senator Santorum, it was just a scheduling matter. We'll have to see whether it, in fact, happens this afternoon. They're hoping to get it back out there to show that they're not scared of this story and that they're willing to get General Hayden right back out there -- Daryn.

KAGAN: All right.

Ed Henry is at the White House. I want to thank everyone else who participated in the coverage of that, Andrea Koppel and Bill Schneider and David Ensor. Thank you for that. As you see a live picture from Andrews Air Force Base, President Bush very soon getting on board Air Force One and heading south, heading to the Gulf Coast, 12th time since Hurricane Katrina hit.

We'll have much more on the story of this NSA report that the NSA allegedly building this massive database of domestic phone calls that apparently ordinary Americans made as they look at a pattern to see if there's anything that could lead to preventing terrorism.

More on that just ahead.

Meanwhile, let's get to some other news of the day.

One logjam has been broken, but hard work remains on immigration reform. This morning, Senate leaders reached a deal to revive a broad immigration bill. This comes after massive immigrant rallies, boycotts, and protests.

The Senate will begin debating the bill on Monday. Lawmakers hope to pass it by Memorial Day.

Then comes critical Senate-House negotiations. The House passed a tough reform bill last December. Under that bill, millions of illegal immigrants would face felony charges and deportation.

A shocking 26-year-old murder case comes to a conclusion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "We, the jury..." -- will the defendant rise -- "... find the defendant guilty of murder."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: You may have seen it live here in the last hour. Jurors convicted the Reverend Gerald Robinson, a Toledo, Ohio, priest, of killing a nun. Sister Margaret Ann Pahl was found choked and stabbed dozens of times at a hospital chapel over Easter weekend in 1980. Prosecutors said the pair had a strained relationship and that it had reached a breaking point.

Robinson is now 68 years old. He was sentenced to life in prison, but could be paroled after 15 years.

Watching the weather picture across the country. Bonnie Schneider has that information for us -- Bonnie.

(WEATHER REPORT)

KAGAN: Surf, sand, and smoke. Florida wildfires are shutting down a major thoroughfare for tourists. Fire crews say it may take several days to reopen the 12-mile stretch of Interstate 95. It is closed between Port Orange and Edgewater.

Workers are trying to clear trees that have toppled on to the north-south roadway. Across the state, smoke has closed other roads, but only for short periods.

Smokers may soon have new help to kick the habit. The government approves an anti-smoking pill. Studies show that the Pfizer drug helped one in five smokers quit for more than a year. Users take the tablets twice a day for up to six months. The drug does not use nicotine. That separates it from other anti-smoking treatments.

Heroism and heartache. They have both got in the Niagara Falls area this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WESLEY DOIG, CAUGHT BABY: I told her to drop the baby and I was on my tippy toes like that. And the baby was dangling in front of me. I had to kind of yell at her and reassure her that I was going to catch the baby. And she dropped it. She dropped it into my hands, and I passed it off to my mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: A quick-thinking teenager catches a baby tossed from a burning house. Seventeen-year-old Wesley Doig lives next door to the burned house. He ran over around midnight just as the baby's mother dropped the toddler from the second floor.

The mother also jumped and broke her fall in the shrubs. The baby's grandfather thought about leaping through the window but didn't. And that cost him his life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TISH DOIG, NEIGHBOR: We were yelling, "Jump! Get out!" And her parents and the daughter was yelling, "Dad, get out! Get out!" And he had his hands -- he wanted to, but it was too much smoke.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: The dead man's wife escaped through a door. The baby, her mother and grandmother are recovering and should be fine.

A hero's welcome for those two rescued gold miners on Australian television. The pair appeared at a televised concert and thanked colleagues who put their lives on the line to dig them out. They also had kind words for friends and family who supported them during their 14-day ordeal underground. The concert raised money for the community and for the family of a miner who was killed in that cave-in.

As we've been mentioning, President Bush is headed back to the Gulf Coast this afternoon. It's his 12th visit since Hurricane Katrina. The president will speak to graduates at Mississippi Gulf Coast College -- Community College in Biloxi.

CNN will bring you live coverage of the president's commencement speech at 3:00 Eastern.

Stay with CNN for the latest on the NSA phone records story throughout the day.

Ahead on "LIVE FROM," "Mama Made the Difference". Who can't agree with that statement? Certainly not T.D. Jakes. It's his new book. Kyra Phillips talks with him about that and more on "LIVE FROM" at the top of the hour.

Meanwhile, join YOUR WORLD TODAY in progress.

I'm Daryn Kagan.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: The real question is Iran's retaliation. It wouldn't stop there.

Iran could do things to cause great instability in Iraq, could cause great instability in Afghanistan. Any U.S. use of military force would likely unleash terrorism and probably we would see the oil at maybe $150 a barrel. So we shouldn't underestimate the consequences of using military force.

JIM CLANCY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Despite the petulant lecturing tone of the letter that went from President Ahmadinejad or Iran to U.S. President George Bush, is there a need for the U.S. to sit down and say, all right, let's talk, no conditions, and see what we have to say?

HAASS: The short answer is yes. The United States should not be afraid of diplomacy. We should see diplomacy as a tool. It's a tool to advance U.S. interests. In this case, to deal with the challenge posed by Iran's nuclear program, by its terrorism, by its behavior around the world.

But there's also a tactical reason for the United States to be open to talks with Iran. It's important that we not look -- that we, the United States, not look like the obstacle. We shouldn't look like we are somehow opposed to a diplomatic or peaceful outcome.

We should basically talk to the Iranian government and go over their head. We should make clear to the Iranian people the benefits of Iran compromising, of acting responsibly. We should make clear to the Iranian people, what is the price they potentially pay economically, diplomatically, even potentially in terms of their security if their regime -- if the Iranian government persists on this path?

There's one other reason for the United States to talk. We need to build international pressure on Iran. We need to get the Security Council, the Russians, the Chinese, the British, the French and others to agree to put pressure on Iran, potentially to introduce sanctions. Talking to Iran, offering to Iran what everyone agrees is a reasonable and fair package is the only way then to build the sort of international pressure we need which gives us a chance to resolve this both satisfactorily, but also peacefully.

CLANCY: Look, when you -- and correct me if I'm wrong, but you scan the entire spectrum of how you can put pressure on Tehran, and you come up really -- I only see one answer, and that would be banning all foreign investment in Iran's energy sector, whether it's the nuclear sector or whether it's the oil sector. Getting Russia and China to go along with that, I mean, how realistic is this?

HAASS: Well, that would be very difficult, but there are other lesser economic steps you could take. Also, the fact the United States is prepared to consider using military force, whatever the risks and downsides, can't be dismissed by China, by Russia, by Iran. So I wouldn't dismiss U.S. leverage here. But there's one other thing.

The Iranian regime, to some extent, is afraid of its own people. It is not popular. If the Iranian people conclude that because of the regime's actions, they are going to be forced to pay an enormous economic price, their standard of living will continue to drift and not go up, that will put enormous pressure on the regime to be more forthcoming.

CLANCY: Well, wasn't that what we were told on Iraq, there'd be dancing in the streets?

HAASS: That's fundamentally different. Iran is a fairly open society. The single area where the Ahmadinejad regime and, in general, the clerics are most vulnerable is on their mismanaged economic policy.

The United States, the Europeans and others should make clear to the Iranian people the price they pay for a nuclear program, the benefits that could accrue to them if they were to compromise on their nuclear program. I believe the Iranian regime will be more sensitive to that than any other threat.

CLANCY: Ambassador Richard Haass laying out the message there. Talks, yes, and not just with the regime.

Thank you for being with us.

HAASS: Thank you.

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: All right. Well, we want to know what you think, our viewers. Today's "Question of the Day" looks at that controversy over Iran's nuclear program.

CLANCY: And this is what we're asking: Should the U.S. hold direct talks with Iran? What do you think? E-mail your thoughts to YWT@CNN.com.

GORANI: Include your name, where you're writing from. We'll read a selection of the e-mails a bit later in the show.

Stay with us. You're with YOUR WORLD TODAY. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: Time to check in on the markets and see how they're doing it. For that, it's over to Valerie Morris in New York.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

GORANI: A check of the headlines is up next, and then the crisis in Darfur spills over the border.

CLANCY: Coming up on YOUR WORLD TODAY, we're going to have an exclusive report from a camp inside Chad. Stay with CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Jim Clancy.

GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani. Here are some of the top stories we're following for you. Supporters of two Egyptian judges accused of slander by the government clashed with police in Cairo. The judges faced a disciplinary hearing in court, but the panel refused to hear the case. The judges are under fire for publicly questioning the results of recent elections in Egypt.

CLANCY: Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says he us ready to talk about the nuclear program with the United States, but only if Washington drops what he calls its bad attitude. Meantime, IAEA Mohammed ElBaradei says he welcomed the decision by the U.N. Security Council to hold off on sanctions against Iran.

GORANI: Also in the headlines, a British parliamentary committee says a lack of resources to hunt down intelligence leads is primarily to blame for the country's worst terrorist attacks. The committee's report on the July 7 London bombings say police were familiar with two of the four attackers, but concentrated instead on others believed to be more threatening at the time. In a separate report also issued Thursday, the government says al Qaeda's role in the attack remains unclear.

CLANCY: Now, there are some new eye-popping details that have been coming out about a U.S. domestic surveillance operation that is being conducted by the National Security Agency. What's new, according to the "USA Today," is the scale of this operation.

David Ensor joins us now from Washington with more on that. In layman's terms -- and we just heard from the president a short time ago...

ENSOR: Right.

CLANCY: In layman's terms, there seems to be a disconnect. Is this getting just phone records or eavesdropping? The president says it's not eavesdropping.

ENSOR: He says it's not eavesdropping. He doesn't say that -- he doesn't say much about what the program is exactly. "USA Today" says that its sources in the telephone companies tell it that they -- that several of the top telephone companies are providing the records of people's telephone records. In other words, the phone numbers they call. Not the names, not the addresses of the people they call and certainly not eavesdropping on the actual conversations, but the phone numbers that they called. And this is everybody in the country, with the exception of one major telephone company, that according to the report, declined to cooperate.

So this has raised a firestorm of controversy already here in Washington. Democrats on the Judiciary Committee, which was holding a hearing anyway, holding up the newspaper, demanding answers and saying this is unconscionable and unacceptable. And it comes at a time when General Michael Hayden, the former head of the National Security Agency, is -- has been nominated by the president to be director of the Central Intelligence Agency and is seeking the vote of senators.

So it's an unfortunate time for the administration. And that is why the president came out in front of the cameras earlier today to try to sort answer -- at least to brush back some of the criticism. Here is some of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: We're not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans. Our efforts are focused on links to al Qaeda and their known affiliates. So far, we've been very successful in preventing another attack on our soil. As a general matter, every time sensitive intelligence is leaked, it hurts our ability to defeat this enemy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ENSOR: So there is the basic point from the administration. While not confirming this program is exactly as described in the newspaper, they are saying they haven't broken the law, they are not listening in on all Americans.

But we did note, before the story came out, that there was a good deal of cooperation from the telephone companies with the national security apparatus of the U.S. government, and that the national security side of the government asked the telecoms to cooperate even more closely after the 9/11 attacks. So now we're hearing more detail about that, according to the newspaper report.

And it may alarm quite a few Americans that their phone records are in government hands. This is something that I think Europeans perhaps are more accustomed to, but over here, it's something that many Americans feel is unconscionable. So it's certainly going to be a lot of debate about the Hayden nomination in this context -- Jim.

CLANCY: David Ensor, there in Washington. As always, I want to thank you for giving us some perspective on what's really going on here. And as you say, we expect to hear a lot more about this story in the hours ahead.

GORANI: Well, authorities in the United Kingdom issued a report saying those attacks that happened on the 7th of July 2005 that killed dozens in the tube in London could have been prevented had there been more police resources. Now, those transit attacks, the loss of life, has left permanent scars on the hearts of many families. And joining us now from London is Diana Gorodi. She lost her sister Michelle in the bombings. Diana, thank you for being with us.

You saw the report that came out, that U.K. authorities published this day, saying as well that two of the bombers were being monitored at the time the attacks happened. What are you thoughts?

DIANA GORODI, LOST SISTER IN LONDON BOMBINGS: I felt very hurt to find out that all these months I had no knowledge of that, and I was hoping not to ever find out that security services in England had actual knowledge of these two suspects and nothing was done about it to prevent it, as far as I'm concerned. I lost my sister. Therefore, nothing was done about it to prevent it. They escaped detection.

GORANI: Last year, there -- when Jean Charles de Menezes, the man who was mistaken for a terrorist, was shot by authorities. You were quoted as saying, you know, don't blame the authorities. This is only hampering the investigation. Are you now pointing a finger of blame, Diana?

GORODI: I'm not sure if I should actually make a comparison between the two instances. What was clearly a mistaken identity, a case of mistaken identity in Mr. de Menezes' case, it is not comparable to what has been revealed today. I wouldn't call it negligence on the part -- on the parts of the security agencies. But it was a recognition that the government needs to do so much more to insure that all the information is being collated, is being shared, and is being analyzed in time to prevent such attacks.

GORANI: Do you think that now the country should move on, the country should say, let's acknowledge there were mistakes made, we were monitoring people who were actually dangerous and ended up carrying out attacks? Should the country move on, or should someone still be held accountable, do you think?

GORODI: These are two separate issues. The country has no choice but to move on and learn some lessons from this 7th of July tragedy. But we must not neglect what happened and why it happened, because this is where we're going to find the answers. If this is going to be any -- if there is going to be any kind of cover up in terms of negligence, or poor decisionmaking or ineffective systems that are operating at the time on the part of the police, (INAUDIBLE), then we need to know about it. And I think the families are entitled to know about it.

GORANI: And do you think that's a possibility? I mean, do you have the feeling everything has not been revealed, I mean, there still are things families of the victims and others can learn about what happened that are not being disclosed?

GORODI: Absolutely. I don't think the report had -- definitely not transparency. They made this quite clear that for legal reasons and security reasons, a lot of information can not be revealed. But obviously, that is -- the information provided, it is not satisfying. There are too many things that don't provide the answers we are hoping for. GORANI: All right. Diana Gorodi lost her sister, Michelle, in the 7th of July bombings last year. Thank you so much for being with us on CNN, Diana -- Jim.

GORODI: You're welcome.

CLANCY: Pope Benedict XVI receiving Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez at the Vatican during their meeting. The pope expressed his concerns about the state of the Catholic Church in Venezuela. The pontiff mentioned an education reform proposal that the Vatican says will exclude religion from the curriculum in Venezuelan schools. The Catholic Church has been an outspoken critic of the controversial leftist leaders.

GORANI: A quarter of a million people with no place, no place to call home.

CLANCY: Now, they're all being sheltered in camps in Chad. Ahead, we're going to have a look at the growing crisis in a country where rebels and refugees alike have been seeking refuge.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Hello again. Welcome back to our viewers in the U.S. and around the world.

GORANI: This is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

CLANCY: Now the African country of Chad is home to about a quarter of a million displaced people. U.N. humanitarian Jan Egeland calls the security situation there "total chaos."

GORANI: And, Jim, Chad is sheltering people from neighboring Sudan, as well as its own people, who no longer feel safe in their own homes.

Nic Robertson gives us an exclusive look at an increasingly desperate and dangerous situation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a dusty, crowded displaced persons camp in Chad, about 50 miles from the border with Sudan, Jan Egeland, the U.N.'s top humanitarian relief official, came to show the world how the problems of Darfur are spreading.

JAN EGELAND, U.N. EMERGENCY RELIEF COORDINATOR: We're on the front lines of humanity here. It's very difficult to aid these people, and it's also very dangerous to aid these people. And I will now speak to their leader, and then we can walk a little bit around.

ROBERTSON: (voice-over): Fourteen-thousand Chadians, all displaced inside their own country by Arab fighters crossing from Sudan, according to Egeland.

EGELAND: This problem is exported from Sudan. It was the ethnic militias, probably the Arab ethnic militias so-called Janjaweeb.

ROBERTSON (on camera): From Sudan?

EGELAND: From Sudan, who displaced all of these people.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): From this camp, at Goz Bieda, aid officials have a problem. There is not enough water, and they need to convince the families, many already displaced for the second time, to move on again.

EGELAND: I think they believe that we will indeed solve this for them. What we cannot solve is security.

ROBERTSON: Chadian troops stand guard during Egeland's visit. But the area is so close to the border, Sudanese rebels seek sanctuary and support in Chad. While the Janjaweeb, backed by the Sudanese government, appear to cross the border and raid villages with impunity.

MARC M. WALL, U.S. AMB. TO CHAD: Borders don't mean very much, though, in this part of the world. It's very hard to know who's Sudanese and who's Chadian.

ROBERTSON: So far, about 50,000 Chadians have been forced from their homes. And without a deterrent force, attacks continue.

(on camera): Security is also an issue for U.N. officials. Less than a week ago, an aide worker was shot in broad daylight in a street of a town considered relatively safe. Her vehicle was stolen. She's in critical condition in a medical facility in Paris.

(voice-over): In the same village, Egeland also visited a refugee camp, crammed with Sudanese families, many who fled across the border from Darfur more than two years ago. An indication of the complexity of the aid program here, refugees, displaced people and locals all compete for the same resources.

A quarter-of-a-million Sudanese are taking refuge in Chad. And despite massive shortfalls in funding this year, according to Egeland, they are getting regular aid handouts.

(on camera): This is where the food distribution happens. There's lentils here, 45 soya (ph), salt in this one, sugar in this barrel, oil over here. The big difference here is that the Darfurian refugees get this food aid. The internally displaced Chadians, from inside of Chad, don't get food handouts.

(voice-over): It's not that aid officials won't feed them. They will. But in Goz Bieda, they want to help the Chadians displaced persons camp to move somewhere more sustainable, and feeding them, they fear, will make them stay.

EGELAND: A main problem for the refugees is funding. For the internally displaced, it's security, it's reaching them. It's much more a group, which is in flux really as they are fleeing within their own country. ROBERTSON: And that's what Egeland came here to spotlight.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Goz Bieda, Chad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: Well, as you heard there, Nic Robertson he has been covering this whole U.N. humanitarian chief's trip as he has been assessing the situation firsthand in the region, as you saw there, with the U.S. ambassador to Chad there as well.

He was first in Sudan, Nic was. Now he's in Chad. He joins us on the line.

Nic, give us an idea, and these people are concerned about their security. How much security do they really have? Any A.U. troops there to protect all those refugees in that camp?

ROBERTSON: There are no A.U. troops here at all in Chad. I have just been to one of the refugee camps outside of the small village that I'm in right now. There are a handful of Chadian gendarmerie police, military police, guarding the camp.

They've been brought in at the request at the U.N., but these gendarmerie told me that a month ago, a group of Sudanese -- a group of Chadian rebels came by, killed one of their officers before driving on to announce a coup in the capital of Chad.

This area is in a state of flux. You not only have the Chadian rebel groups, you have the Sudanese rebel groups coming over to the camps trying to recruit people from the camps to go back and fight in Darfur. But you also have the Janjaweed who are crossing over, and in the area that we're in right now, the Janjaweed have been spotted around here in the last couple of days.

People I talked to in the refugee camps here are very, very worried. One of the people in the camps told me today that cattle had been stolen just on the edge of the camp. There's nothing, he said, that they can do -- Jim.

CLANCY: You have had a chance to see a lot of this up close and personal. Share with us your perspective. How optimistic are you? When you look at these scenes, yes, there's been a peace deal, but how far away are the benefits?

ROBERTSON: Jim, one of the things that really strikes me here at the moment is most of the people I talked to in the refugee camps are disappointed with the peace deal because the people that I have talked to in these camps -- and I have by no means talked to all of them, but I have talked to at least three -- no four now -- significantly different camps.

They think that the peace deal sells them out. A lot of the people that I've talked to don't support the rebel leaders who signed up for the peace deal with the Sudanese government. They support other rebel leaders. It's been said that some of these smaller rebel groups that didn't sign up don't have military power. But what they do have, it appears, is a relatively large, broad base of support.

So when I look at the situation and the problem, you can see that there are still some very -- some issues that still need to be surmounted, getting the other elements, getting the other rebel groups to sign up for the peace deal, and then of course implementing it quickly, bringing in additional security to back up the African Union inside Sudan, perhaps getting some sort of beefed up security in Chad for the refugees and displaced people here.

These seem to be the top issues that aid officials and Jan Egeland in particular are struggling with right now, Jim.

CLANCY: Nic Robertson, as always, our thanks to you. Some incredibly good perspective there of what it's like inside the camps.

GORANI: Absolutely fantastic reporting.

Still ahead, as promised, we're going to show you how this helicopter and its passengers fared.

CLANCY: We'll also be getting a response, your responses, to our "Inbox" question. Should the U.S. hold direct talks with Iran? Your thoughts coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: Now to some stunning pictures from Russia's Sakhalin Island of a disaster in the making. Look at this. A Russian helicopter appears to lose power and makes a hard landing on the Sea of Okhotsk. Now, that's scary enough. But then the rotor strikes the surface -- there it is -- causing the entire helicopter to break up. It disintegrates, literally, on the surface of the water.

All 13 people are rescued, but three people were taken to the hospital. One of them, unfortunately and sadly, later dying from his injuries. But it's pretty remarkable that 12 people survived.

CLANCY: Twelve people made it out.

GORANI: And 10 people weren't taken to the hospital at all. Unbelievable.

CLANCY: Well, time for us to quickly open our "Inbox."

GORANI: Our question was should the United States hold direct talks with Iran?

CLANCY: Adegbie in France says, "I strongly feel the USA should not meet with Iran. This is a U.N. issue and should be treated likewise."

GORANI: Julia in the United Kingdom says, "Yes, the U.S. should speak with Iran, create value, respect the other, and calm their fears."

CLANCY: Diana in Denmark says, "The U.S. should not do it alone, because no matter how well the U.S. would do, the world would always criticize. Therefore, it should be a group of nations."

GORANI: All right. That's it for this hour of YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Hala Gorani.

CLANCY: I'm Jim Clancy. This is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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