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Your World Today

Jack Straw's 'Mature Debate' Sparks Anger; U.S., North Korea's Asian Neighbors Watch and Wait for Possible Nuclear Test; International Care Group Tackles Pain and Suffering in Congo; A Look at U.S. Rendition Policy

Aired October 06, 2006 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RALITSA VASSILEVA, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Not so veiled comments. A prominent British politician angers many, while suggesting Muslim women take off their veils.
JIM CLANCY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Rallying the military. North Korean leader Kim Jong-il puts on a show as U.N. powers consider what to do if he goes ahead with a nuclear weapons test.

VASSILEVA: And when you can't call 911. A sobering look at Congo's public health crisis, brought on by years of fighting and human suffering.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's so scary when you hear people being tortured. It's so scary when you are beaten.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: An innocent man caught in the war on terror and subjected to what human rights groups say is the outsourcing of torture.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to our report broadcast around the globe.

I'm Jim Clancy.

VASSILEVA: I'm Ralitsa Vassileva.

From London to New York, to Kinshasa and wherever you're watching us, this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

Jack Straw says his comments were designed to provoke a mature debate.

CLANCY: But instead, the former British foreign secretary's remarks sparking an avalanche of criticism and anger from the Muslim community. Straw suggested it would be better if Muslim women didn't wear veils that cover their faces.

VASSILEVA: This coming at a time when British-Muslims are under increasing scrutiny after last year's July bombings. A government survey paints a bleak picture of the community, blaming poverty and discrimination for many of the problems.

CLANCY: Now it says that they're twice as likely to be unemployed as members of other faiths and five times as likely to live in overcrowded housing.

VASSILEVA: Emma Murphy has more on the latest flap that fueled more controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EMMA MURPHY, REPORTER, ITV NEWS (voice over): A visible statement of separation and difference, Jack Straw's view on the veils worn by many Muslim women. Today, amid a barrage of criticism, he was not backing down.

JACK STRAW, FMR. BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: I'm not saying that people should not be allowed to wear the veil. I respect people's religious decisions. But I'm concerned both about direct communication with people when they come to see me. I'm also concerned about the wider implications for race and religious relations. And I think it's important that this issue is actually put on the table.

MURPHY: Many claim that Jack Straw's comments are an attack on Islam. However, the Koran states that "There is no compulsion in religion." Many take this to mean that faith should come from within and should not be forced.

For cultural reasons, though, many Muslim women choose to wear the jilbab, a long flowing garment often accompanied by the hijab, or headscarf. Others choose to wear the niqab, a veil attached to the hijab, leaving only the eyes showing.

Thirty-one-year-old Anwara Bagam (ph) is the kind of woman Jack Straw is referring to. She's covered her face for years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think we've had any problem with communicating with people because our face is covered. Because whoever knows us knows us anyway. And we are talking to you.

Like, I've got my face covered. I'm still talking to you. So I don't consider it a problem for me communicating with anybody.

MURPHY (on camera): If you were asked by Jack Straw to remove, would you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I wouldn't. I don't know. I don't think any other people would anyway.

MURPHY (voice over): So what of others in Jack Straw's constituency?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think what he said is OK and we should just cooperate with that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think lots of people want to ask the question but they're not brave enough to do so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I think it's about time we got rid of Jack Straw. I don't think -- I mean, everyone's got their right to say obviously as a person, but being especially a former home secretary, I think he's just making the situation worse.

MURPHY: One in four of Jack Straw's constituents is Muslim. And Britain's foreign policy was blamed for a fall in his majority at the last election. He knows as well as anyone the political risk of these comments.

Emma Murphy, ITV News.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: We turn our focus now to two of the world's biggest trouble spots, countries U.S. President George W. Bush once said are part of the axis of evil. All eyes right now on Iran and North Korea. Going into this weekend there's a lot that's expected to happen on both fronts.

Six top powers are meeting in London. They're discussing imposing sanctions against Iran for its defiance of the world community.

North Korea, meantime, still threatening to test a nuclear weapon. South Korean media reports say that test may happen as soon as Sunday.

VASSILEVA: And U.S. spy satellites have been training their sights on North Korea. South Korea's military is on high alert as scientists watch and listen for seismic tremors and sounds from a blast.

So what could happen if North Korea really decides to go forward?

Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, joins us now.

So what is the U.S. going to do, Barbara, if the North Koreans do indeed conduct a nuclear test?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ralitsa, by all accounts, the Bush administration is still going down the diplomatic track. But new pictures out of Pyongyang today show the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il, rallying his troops, meeting with his top military commanders in North Korea as this possibility continues and the world community, through the United Nations, mainly, and the six- party talks trying to pressure Pyongyang not to proceed with any nuclear test.

One of the strongest statements really came from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. In an impromptu meeting with reporters yesterday, he said his major concern, besides the obvious, of course, of North Korea going into the nuclear realm, was his concern that they would then sell that technology to other rogue states or terrorist groups. And he was asked just how concerned he is about this test. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don't think I need to be in the speculation business. The intelligence community is gathering what information they're able to gather. At some point we'll know if it is words or actually a test. And it will speak for itself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: Ralitsa, the secretary's words, the intelligence community gathering what information it is able to gather. Make no mistake, U.S. satellites, U.S. spy planes now, of course, constantly operating over the Korean peninsula. You're not going to hear a lot about it, but let's show you a picture of one of those spy planes.

This is the WC-135, a U.S. Air Force aircraft. Its nickname is the Constant Phoenix.

This is the only plane in the U.S. military inventory that does essentially sampling of the atmosphere, sampling of the air, looking for any indications of radioactivity. But, of course, it is going to be seismic stations around the world that are likely to get the first signal that any nuclear underground test has taken place in North Korea -- Ralitsa.

VASSILEVA: Barbara, you're saying that the U.S. wants to still go the diplomatic way. What North Korea has indicated is that it will enter talks again that it's been shunning for about a year if financial sanctions imposed by the U.S. -- which are really hurting the North Koreans -- are lifted.

STARR: Well, that may be, in fact, North Korea's view. And, of course, there is some, you know, assessment or analysis out there that one of the reasons North Korea is ratcheting up the rhetoric by saying it will conduct a test is to try and gain some leverage with the international community on that very point of economic and financial assistance. But, in fact, every signal from the U.S. and from other countries is that if they were to test, exactly the opposite would happen, that there would be some sort of full embargo, absolutely no relations with that country.

And that word is coming from an awful lot of different quarters. Really, at this point, every major capital around the world, from Beijing to Moscow, is trying to pressure North Korea not to go down this road.

VASSILEVA: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.

Thank you very much.

STARR: Sure.

VASSILEVA: Jim.

CLANCY: Well, in Africa, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan warned of backsliding in Sudan's Darfur region. He says rape and violence there on the rise.

It was part of his monthly report on Darfur that Annan wrote, "The region is again on the brink of a catastrophic situation. Unless security improves, the world is facing the prospect of having to drastically curtail an acutely needed humanitarian operation."

Meantime, the U.S. has been demanding that the Security Council have a response over Sudan's warning to U.N. nations. Khartoum says any country providing peacekeeping troops is committing what it calls a hostile act and that all of it would be a prelude to an invasion.

VASSILEVA: Let's shift our attention now to the African conflict that has produced unimaginable casualties in the last 10 years, the Democratic Republic of Congo. Four million dead from the conflict, also from hunger and disease.

How is that possible? The answer, neither civilians nor soldiers can expect anything close to reasonable medical care.

Anderson Cooper has the story of one victim and finds those trying to help.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a small clinic in the Congo's countryside, a wounded soldier waits for help. His hand has been ripped apart by a gunshot wound. The clinic, however, is poorly equipped. They don't even have painkillers.

Luckily, for the soldier, a French medical group, Medecins Sans Frontieres, or MSF, runs a nearby hospital. They already have an ambulance on the way.

(on camera): The war here officially ended in 2003, but there has been sporadic fighting ever since. There's a number of militia groups refusing to give up their weapons. There's bandits who are armed and looking to make a few bucks. And there's government soldiers, who are poorly trained, poorly educated, and, in many cases, haven't been paid a regular salary for months.

(voice-over): It is a dangerous combination. And bloodshed is common.

GUILLAUME LE DUC, DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS: We see about 10 to 20 gunshot wounds every month.

COOPER: The team from MSF gets to work as soon as they arrive.

"I'm dying. I'm dying," he shouts.

LE DUC: And here, in the Congo, a lot of people die. You see the big numbers. It's -- some people die from the fighting, but a lot of people die from the consequences of fighting. People don't have a lot of access to care because of that, because they have to -- they have to pay about $1 for a basic consultation, which is a lot of money. COOPER: MSF doesn't charge patients for treatment, but this clinic is too crude. They need to get them to their hospital as quickly as possible.

(on camera): It's not clear exactly what happened to this soldier. He says he got into an argument with another soldier over a tire, ended up getting shot by that soldier in the hand. He's obviously in a lot of pain. The wound is very severe on his hand. There's a good chance he will lose it.

(voice-over): The medical team makes sure the soldier changes into civilian clothes and leaves his weapon behind. They don't want the local population to see a soldier in their ambulance and think they are taking sides in the Congo's conflict. MSF will treat anyone, but they insist on remaining strictly neutral.

When they arrive at the hospital, things move quickly.

(on camera): The soldier has only been in the hospital for about five minutes, but he has already been brought into the operating room. He's been put under anesthesia. And now doctors are going to examine his hand closely to see if they have to amputate, or if they will be able to save it.

(voice-over): For doctors, it's a constant battle to keep the operating room sterile. Surgeon Jean Reesh (ph) cleans the soldier's lifeless hand and decides it's time to operate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a -- a good look. And to -- I will try to keep the -- the thumb and maybe one or two fingers. And if it's not possible, we will have to amputate.

COOPER: This is just one of many operations Dr. Reesh (ph) has performed this week. For doctors in the Congo, there is always plenty of work.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because of the violence, because of displacements, because of the armed groups here, you -- you just have a lot of conditions that create complicated cases.

COOPER: The soldier's case turned out to be more complicated than Dr. Reesh (ph) thought. After an hour-and-a-half of surgery, he had to amputate his entire hand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are here to target mortality and try and reduce that as much as we can. But -- but we are just only a drop in the middle of this ocean of pain and suffering.

COOPER: Anderson Cooper, CNN, Rutshuru.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: A deal between the United States and Europe to share your personal information tops our check of other stories making news this hour.

VASSILEVA: That's right. We're talking about the privacy of the flying public.

The U.S. and the EU have agreed to share details on passengers on transatlantic flights. If requested, airlines will provide information to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, including passenger names, addresses, and credit card details. It's all part of the anti-terrorism efforts.

CLANCY: Hungary's beleaguered prime minister on Friday won a vote of confidence. Still, thousands gathered outside of the parliament building. They were still demanding his dismissal. Last month, Ferenc Gyurcsany was heard on a leaked recording he lied all through the election campaign about the economy in order to win April's vote.

VASSILEVA: And new findings show marijuana use may help in treating Alzheimer's Disease. Researchers of the Scripps Institute in the U.S. say that THC, which is the active ingredient in marijuana, helps prevent protein build up that impairs memory and cognition.

Well, still ahead, caught up in the sweep in the war on terrorism.

CLANCY: An innocent man, a man who spent 10 months in a Syrian prison.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they can get away with doing it to me, they're going to get away to doing it to whoever they choose to do it to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: His lawyer says this could happen to you. What went wrong and how. His story when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VASSILEVA: Awkward moments for Palestinian prime minister Ismail Haniya during his speech in Gaza. Haniya briefly fainting as he made his remarks.

His aides surrounded him and helped him to a chair. Hamas officials say Haniya had been fasting to mark Islam's holy month of Ramadan and hot temperatures didn't help either. He later returned to the podium and finished his address.

Well, welcome back. Seen live around the globe, this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

A U.S. lawmaker who just returned from Iraq has offered a grim progress report. Republican senator John Warner says Iraq is drifting sideways, without a commitment from its government to disarm militias.

Warner, who is the chairman of the powerful Senate Armed Services Committee, said, "In two or three months, if this level of violence is not under control and the government able to function, I think it's the responsibility of our government internally to determine, is there a change of course that we should take?"

CLANCY: Well, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is now on her way from Iraq to London. That's where she's going to be sitting down and talking with foreign ministers of other United Nations Security Council nations.

On the agenda, Iran's nuclear agenda. But she's going to be a little bit late for that. Multiple problems with aircraft delayed her departure from Iraq.

While there, she did hold meetings with Kurdish president -- the Kurdish leader, Massoud Barzani. Secretary Rice urged the Kurds to work for a united Iraq and support the country's new central government.

Continuing violence in Iraq and the whole risk of the country breaking apart along sectarian lines has meant continuing pressure for Donald Rumsfeld to step down. The U.S. secretary of defense is the focus of our documentary, "Rumsfeld: Man of War".

He talked with Frank Sesno about all of his critics and the criticism that he faces.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUMSFELD: It is awfully easy to be on the outside and to opine on this and opine on that and critique this. If you go back and check the people who have been offering opinions, they've been wrong as many times as they've been right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: Now, you can see -- you can see the documentary "Rumsfeld: Man of War" in its entirety coming up this Saturday at 19:00 hours Greenwich Mean Time.

Washington playing the blame game in the latest congressional e- mail scandal.

VASSILEVA: That's right. Just ahead, one U.S. lawmaker steps down. But in the end, no one may even be charged.

CLANCY: Plus, the man who says he was tortured in Syria after the U.S. sent him there. One of the more controversial aspects of the war on terror, rendition, coming up after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And hello, everyone. I'm Tony Harris at the CNN Center in Atlanta.

More of YOUR WORLD TODAY in just a few minutes. But first, a check on stories making headlines here in the United States.

New developments in that chemical plant fire in North Carolina. The building has collapsed and the fire is still burning.

The overnight blaze sent a cloud of noxious gases into the air over Apex, near Raleigh. State officials say preliminary air quality tests have found nothing "alarming". Thousands of people in Apex have been asked to clear out.

At least 10 police officers have been treated for nausea and breathing problems. Nine other people are being treated for respiratory complications. The blaze comes a half year after the chemical disposal company was cited for six safety violations. But the Apex mayor says two inspections late last month turned up nothing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR KEITH WEATHERLY, APEX, NORTH CAROLINA: There was an assessment of -- by the hazardous waste division earlier this year, but the company is required under applicable law to be inspected four times a month. And the most recent inspection was done on September 28th and September 29th with no violation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Let's check in with Reynolds Wolf now.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HARRIS: And this fire gutting an historic church in downtown Memphis. The century-old First United Methodist Church went up in flames today. Three other buildings a couple blocks away also burned. It's believed they were ignited by embers from the church. One of the buildings is Lincoln American Tower, once the city's tallest skyscraper.

A plane in pieces outside of Atlanta. Authorities say a single engine Cessna went down this morning right by a residential area. Three of the four people on board were killed. The lone survivor was hurt. There were no casualties on the ground. Officials say it appears the plane clipped power lines after taking off.

And we want to update you on breaking news from about an hour ago. We told you that schools in Marion County, Florida, the city of Sparr, Florida, had been placed on lockdown. But we understand that that lockdown has been lifted and the all clear has been given not only to the high school, but also to the middle school.

But that news just coming in to us here at CNN. Want to update that situation for you, that the lockdown of the Marion County high school and the middle school there in Sparr, Florida, has been lifted. The all clear sounded.

The latest jobs report sending out a mixed message today. The Labor Department says employers added 51,000 jobs in September, the fewest in almost a year. But the unemployment rate dropped to 4.6 percent. Experts suggest the economy may be slowing but is in no danger of sliding into a recession. A former page in the Foley fallout, a former page who was president of his page class a few years ago and talked to Foley almost daily, talks to Kyra Phillips and Don Lemon in the "NEWSROOM" next hour. His thoughts and what he's hearing from other pages in the "NEWSROOM," 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

Meantime, YOUR WORLD TODAY continues after a quick break.

I'm Tony Harris.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Jim Clancy.

VASSILEVA: I'm Ralitsa Vassileva. Here are some of the top stories we're following this hour.

The leader of the British House in Commons is in hot water for saying Muslim women should think twice about wearing a veil. Jack Straw says veils make community relations, quote, "more difficult," because they act as, quote, "a visible statement of separation." Straw insists he defends Muslims' rights to wear veils.

CLANCY: The United Nations Security Council expected to formally warn North Korea don't test a nuclear weapon. The White House says such a test would be unacceptable and would destabilize the region. South Korea's military is on alert for the test. Some think it could be as soon as this weekend.

VASSILEVA: Iran's nuclear ambitions are just one of the focal points at a meeting of six top world powers in London. Foreign ministers of the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council plus Germany are discussing ways to handle Iran's refusal to suspend its uranium enrichment program.

CLANCY: We're going to turn now and spend a little bit of time on an important subject, the controversial weapon in the U.S. war on terror. Washington calls it rendition. Human rights groups say it's nothing more than outsourcing torture.

Rendition -- and let's explain what it actually is -- it involves the seizing of terror suspects in a country outside the U.S. and then transferring them to a third country where there aren't laws about just how tough they can be in interrogation. The CIA practice started in 1995. It was authorized by then President Bill Clinton. It's unclear how many suspects have been rendered. We will hear from both sides the rendition debate shortly.

VASSILEVA: But first, we examine the case of Syrian-born Canadian Maher Arar. By Washington's definition, Arar was not technically rendered because he was in the U.S. when he was sent back to Syria as a terror suspect. Still, his case is being held up as an example of how U.S. policy flagrantly flaunts international law.

Bronwyn Adcock has Arar's story. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRONWYN ADCOCK, CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Canadian Maher Arar is an innocent man. Yet based on unfounded suspicions, he was sent for ten months of hell in a Syrian prison, where he was tortured.

MAHER ARAR, FORMER TORTURE DETAINEE: Let me tell you something that happened during the interrogation. I urinated myself twice during the interrogation. I don't know what that shows, but my nerves, like, I can't control myself. It's so scary when you hear people being tortured. It's so scary when you are beaten. And I would just say anything -- anything they want -- just to stop the torture.

ADCOCK: Maher Arar was sent to Syria by United States government officials who believed he had information about terrorist suspects. Ahar's lawyers believe the U.S. sent him for the purpose of interrogation under torture.

BILL GOODMAN, MAHER ARAR'S ATTORNEY: They wanted to torture him. But they didn't quite have the wherewithal, the guts, let's say, to do what they really intended to do -- was to torture this man. So they franchised the torture. They knew the Syrians wouldn't blink at torturing someone. And the purpose was, supposedly, to get information from him about his connections with al Qaeda, which, by the way, are totally nonexistent.

ADCOCK: Maher Ahar is not the only case of what's known as extraordinary rendition, a secretive U.S. policy of outsourcing torture to countries like Syria and Egypt. It's proving embarrassing and controversial for the U.S. government.

Arar was the first to sue the government over the practice. In clear victory for the Bush administration, his case was thrown out of court.

GOODMAN: I think some of our clients are terrified of coming back to the United States, and even though...

ADCOCK: Bill Goodman says this gives a green light for the government to continue with extraordinary rendition.

GOODMAN: If they can get away with doing it to Maher Arar, they're going to get away with doing it to whoever they choose to do it to, whether he be a non-citizen or a citizen, in my humble opinion. Or she. And that person will -- who's sent to Syria today can be sent to the Sudan or Somalia tomorrow, or who knows where the next day.

ADCOCK: Maher Arar's terrifying journey began in the summer of 2002, when he was detained while in transit at JFK Airport in New York.

He was held here in a Brooklyn detention center for two weeks, with little access to a lawyer. He was accused of being a member of al Qaeda and told he was to be deported -- not to Canada, but to Syria, the country of his birth. ARAR: And I told him, I said, listen, you're going to send me to a country that you know does -- has no law, they don't follow the law. If you send me there, I'm going to be tortured. So I raised the torture issue many times.

ADCOCK: Despite his pleas and with no legal extradition process, Arar was put on board a Gulf Stream jet. It's now known that these planes have been widely used in America's rendition program, taking detainees everywhere from Eastern Europe to the Middle East.

Once in Syria, Maher Arar's worst fears were realized.

ARAR: They would basically put me back to the interrogation and they would beat me again like three or four times with a cable. And now they started beating me on my shoulder, on my back, on my hips, on -- mostly. And they would ask questions. Again, sometimes they would beat first and then ask second.

ADCOCK: Arar says in Syria, he was asked identical questions to those asked when he was detained in the U.S., leading him to believe that his Syrian interrogators were acting behalf of the United States.

ARAR: And I asked the colonel, actually -- I said, you guys know I have nothing to do with any allegations the Americans have against me. Why don't you release me? And he said, oh, you're going home very soon. Now whether I believe him or not -- because they lie to me all the times, right? But he could -- I could tell in their eyes that they had no interest in me.

ADCOCK: Syrian officials have since confirmed that they only took Arar because the Americans requested it.

Maher Arar was released home to Canada after ten months, time spent in a coffin-sized cell in solitary confinement. He's never been charged with anything.

"Dateline" caught up with Maher Arar again after he'd received the news about the court's decision.

ARAR: When a human being is wronged, the first place he would expect to go is to the justice system. And in my case, that's what -- I exactly did. And I filed a lawsuit two years ago. And I wanted to held the people accountable. And all of a sudden, the judge, he's just saying, you know, good luck. That's what's, you know, scary about it.

ADCOCK: In his court case against the U.S. government, Arar asked for compensation and a statement that what happened to him was unlawful. The case was dismissed, largely because of national security and foreign policy considerations. The judge said taht he couldn't declare what happened to Arar was illegal because it could threaten the security of America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "A judge who declares on his or her own Article III authority that the policy of extraordinary rendition is under all circumstances unconstitutional must acknowledge that such a ruling can have the most serious of consequences to our foreign relations or national security or both."

ADCOCK: The judge said that such decisions are for the government, not the judiciary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The task of balancing individual rights against national security concerns is one that courts should not undertake without the guidance or the authority of the coordinate branches, in whom the constitution imposes responsibility for our foreign affairs and national security. Those branches have the responsibility to determine whether judicial oversight is appropriate."

ADCOCK: Arar's lawyers are shocked by the judgment. Bill Goodman says judicial oversight of the government is an essential part of democracy.

GOODMAN: This is a principle that goes back to the magna carta, at least to the 1213, the 13th century and probably beyond. But if the courts cannot get involved and cannot demand answers from the executive branch and cannot demand answers from the executive branch, and cannot tell the executive branch that it cannot abuse its power, than nobody can. We're setting ourselves up for an executive branch which will -- which is prepared to, will likely and undoubtedly, in my opinion, will abuse its power.

ADCOCK: Bill Goodman agrees it's important to consider national security, but not at any cost.

GOODMAN: I think they have to be taken into consideration in determining whether or not what the government has done is reasonable. But I do not think that they're a trump card and can be played and as a result no court can get involved in deciding whether or not somebody's rights have been violated. That would be a violation of the most basic and fundamental democratic principles of the American Constitution.

ADCOCK: This is clearly not the view of the judge, though. He went as far as saying that the judiciary doesn't have the right to hold the government to account over policies like rendition, even if the law is broken.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Judges should not, in the absence of explicit direction by Congress, hold officials who carry out such policies liable for damages, even if such conduct violates our treaty obligations or customary international law.

ADCOCK: The Ahar judgment is clearly written in the context of America being in the middle of a so-called war on terror. It frequently cites the importance of national security. Ahar's lawyers say this has led the judge to act in fear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fear of terror, you know, fear there will be another terrorist attack. And that if there is, that these opinions that the judges will be blamed because they let the terrorists get away with it, because they -- they tied the hands of the government in fighting the war on terror. Which, of course, this isn't. This is demanding of the government that it do what the Constitution compels it to.

ADCOCK: For Mahar Ahar, his only connection with terrorists is that he was mistaken for one. It's a devastating blow.

AHAR: You have to understand the context in which all of this happened, you know. I was a successful engineer before. I was living a normal life. I had everything I wanted, you know. And all of a sudden, I am put out a job. I am still -- I still have scars, mostly psychological scars, and I'm still with the nightmares. I'm still with -- suffering from psychological effects. And financially, I have -- it's very, very, you know, bad situation.

And that's what's disappointing about this. Not only, like, it's giving the Bush administration the green light to continue in their evil practice, but also it's very destructive for me on a personal level.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: All right. A day in court. Maher Arar has decided he's going to appeal the U.S. court decision. CNN invited U.S. officials to come here and talk with us. They had to decline, they said. The Justice Department did issue a statement, saying, we're having ongoing litigation with Mr. Arar. The Department of Justice cannot say anything outside of court. A U.S. State Department official did say the U.S. had no intention of mistreating Arar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN MCCORMACK, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: My understanding of this is that he was -- at the time, U.S. officials made a determination that he posed -- based on the information that they had that he posed a threat, so he was removed from the U.S. to a country of his citizenship, Syria. It was done after there were assurances that his treatment would meet the standards of the Geneva Conventions, meaning that in the sense that he was not going to be maltreated. We had to have a reasonable expectation that he was not going to be tortured or maltreated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: Well, what do the Syrians say then? Well, we contacted the Syrian government. Its ambassador to the United States says Arar was not treated badly in its care, and strongly contests his allegations that he was tortured. As for the Canadians, an exhaustive inquiry there came to a close recently and it exonerated Maher Arar.

VASSILEVA: Well, when we return, much more on the rendition controversy, including the views of two experts who debate the case of Arar. Were his civil rights trampled on? We'll get their views, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VASSILEVA: Welcome back. Seen live in more than 200 countries across the globe. CLANCY: This is YOUR WORLD TODAY on CNN International.

VASSILEVA: We want to continue now with our look at that controversial practice of rendition.

CLANCY: People asking, really, is this the pursuit of justice, security, or is it persecution?

VASSILEVA: Well, we got the opinion of two experts.

CLANCY: Jonathan Hafetz is the associate council at the Brennan Center for Social Justice at New York University.

VASSILEVA: He says rendition robs people of their civil rights.

CLANCY: Now at the same time, JAn Ting, a lawyer, professor and former U.S. immigration official, in fact, suggests the practice is not only legal, but it's necessary.

VASSILEVA: And he actually took issue with our report on Maher Arar.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAN TING, FMR. U.S. IMMIGRATION OFFICIAL: I taught your piece was inaccurate, and therefore incomplete and biassed. I mean, if Mr. Arar was mistreated, that was certainly a regrettable thing. But as most of your Canadian viewers know, there's been big debate in Canada as to what the Canadian government did wrong. Clearly, the Canadian government advised the United States government that Mr. Arar was an al Qaeda operative, and his removal from the United States was based on that representation from the Canadian government.

Now, in accordance with American law, he was deported to a country of which he was a citizen, Syria, as the government representative said. Representations were made that he would not be tortured, would not be mistreated.

I just think it's one more example of finger-pointing on the part of people outside the United States that, rather than blame themselves for errors that have been made, it's always easier to blame the United States.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: You know, I'm just curious about one thing about that -- since when did the U.S. start trusting the Syrians on that sort of thing?

TING: Well, you know, I mean, it's a ridiculous assertion to believe that the United States, which views Syria as an adversary, as a country of origin of terrorism and part of the axis of evil is in position to manipulate the Syrians to do our bidding. I mean, it just stretches credibility to even make that suggestion.

HOLMES: My point was the U.S. sought assurances from Syria that he would be well treated. My point is, since when did the U.S. trust Syria on that? JONATHAN HAFETZ, BRENNAN CTR. FOR JUSTICE: Can I interject for a moment?

TING: Well, look, we do the best we can do. When we're deporting somebody -- you asked me a question, you know. When we're deporting somebody, we have to find a country willing to take them, and the country we have diplomatic leverage on to take them is the country of which the individual is a citizen.

HOLMES: All right, Jonathan, let's bring you in now. One thing that strikes me, if the man's meant to be a member of it is a terrorist organization, why would we send him back to a country we accuse of terror sponsoring? Why would he not be charged and dealt with right on U.S. soil?

HAFETZ: The allegations in the Arar case clearly show that he was sent to Syria, outsourced for torture, because the United States had suspicions he might be involved in terrorism, and essentially asked Syria to do the dirty work. And let me just go back, because I think Professor Ting, there's -- I want to clarify something about what he said about the findings of the Canadian report.

HOLMES: Certainly, they critiqued the Canadian government as well. But they also made some devastating findings about the complicity of the United States.

HAFETZ: First of all, the -- while Arar was in custody in the United States, the Canadian counterterrorism officials contacted the United States and said they did not know for certain whether Arar was, in fact, a terrorist. They had concerns about it. And they also -- the United States never informed Canada that they were planning to send him to Syria, and further, while Arar was in custody, he was denied a clearly established right, which was the right to seek the assistance of his consul. This was done in secret. This is the manifestation of a secret rendition program where you send people beyond the law.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: All right, Michael Holmes there, hosting those two gentlemen, talking about rendition. We got pretty spirited there at some points.

We went to change our focus now to some news that's just coming in to CNN. A Navy corpsman accused of the kidnapping and murder of Hasham Ibrahim Awad has pled guilty to one count of conspiracy and one count of perjury.

Petty Officer Melson Bacos was a medic on patrol with seven marines last April when the murder took place. Bacos still faces murder charges. The marines are accused of grabbing Awad from his home, dragging him out into the street, shooting him and then covering up the crime.

VASSILEVA: Well, still ahead, for centuries, the monuments stood in their majestic splendor. CLANCY: Now an ancient capital in Thailand is threatened by nature. Will rain do what time could not? We're going to head to Ayutthaya when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Love cats but hate to sneeze? Well, we've got a pet for you.

VASSILEVA: A company in California has come up with what's been called the holy grail of the $35 billion pet industry, called the hypoallergenic cat.

CLANCY: If you can believe it. These cats, Ralitsa, are bred so they can't produce the protein that causes most human cat allergies. Such perfection though, Ralitsa, it comes at a little bit of a price.

VASSILEVA: A little bit -- $4,000 to be precise, plus you'll have to pass a series of medical and psychological tests and you also have to wait at least a year to receive your new lifestyle pet. And they say cats are picky.

CLANCY: Yes, cats are picky. Well, you know, hate cats and hate to sneeze, just don't get one, all right? Save $4,000, too.

Now to Thailand where a centuries-old temple is being threatened by some very modern floods.

VASSILEVA: Dan Rivers tells that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the people in Ayutthaya, the effects of this year's typhoon season are being felt like never before. Heavy rains have swollen the rivers and flooded the town, inundating homes and shops with churning muddy warner.

(on camera): Ayutthaya has a distinctly Venetian feel at the moment. The floods have been like this for more than a week, so the people have built these raised walkways to get around. And the main street now is an impromptu floating market.

(voice-over): Buying the weekly groceries with the kids is suddenly a bit of a challenge. For many children, school is out, and all this seems so much fun. But this flood has caused real damage and misery here.

And it's threatening some of the world's most precious archaeological heritage. This huge temple complex is more than 500 years old, but now the authorities are struggling to hold back the river.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a battle against the water.

RIVERS (on camera): And are you winning?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We try and work quite hard to beat them.

RIVERS (voice-over): The water's rising 10 centimeters, four inches a day. At that rate, it won't be long before this dam is breached. It's already flooded out the elephants that carry tourists around the temple. They're being moved to higher ground, their enclosures wet. They've been unable to sleep. At least their new home is dry, for now.

Dan Rivers, CNN, Ayutthaya, Thailand.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VASSILEVA: Well, that's it for this hour. I'm Ralitsa Vassileva.

CLANCY: I'm Jim Clancy. Thanks for being with us. This is CNN. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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