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Your World Today

Death of Former Russian Spy Now Has Thousands of Airlines Passengers Concerned; Bush Expresses Full Support in Iraqi Prime Minister; Pope's Visit to Turkey

Aired November 30, 2006 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

COLLEEN MCEDWARDS, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: New twists in an intensifying investigation, why the poisoning death of a former Russian spy now has thousands of airline passengers concerned.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: A show of support for Iraq's prime minister as the U.S. president pledges to help get the job done.

MCEDWARDS: And reaching across a religious divide. The pope pays an historic visit to one of the world's most famous mosques.

HOLMES: It is 5:00 p.m. in London, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad.

Hello and welcome to our report broadcast right around the globe.

I'm Michael Holmes.

MCEDWARDS: And I'm Colleen Mcedwards.

From Amman, to Istanbul, to Moscow, wherever you are watching, this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

HOLMES: Welcome, everyone.

Several airplanes are grounded, a dozen sites are contaminated, tens of thousands of travelers are worried. There are some rapid developments in this real-life bizarre murder mystery with international connections unfolding in London.

MCEDWARDS: The death of a former Russian spy leaves a long radioactive trail and a whole bunch of unanswered questions, even now.

HOLMES: It does.

Let's begin with the story of the former KGB spy Alexander Litvinenko, who died of radiation poisoning, you'll remember, in London last week. Well, radioactive traces have been found on a string of sites, on at least two aircraft as well. The British home secretary says the risk to the public is low, but that may not help the public breathe any easier.

Matthew Chance joining us now from London.

And as we've discussed, Matthew, this gets curiouser and curiouser. MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It does. It gets more and more bizarre and more complicated as the days go on and this story seems to intensify.

You're right, though, the British authorities have been playing down the level of threat posed by this radiation to the general public, saying that any of the measures that they're taking are merely precautionary. At the same time, experts who have been probing that suspicious killing, the poisoning of the former Russian agent, Alexander Litvenenko, now say that traces of radiation have been -- have been detected in at least 12 locations. And so obviously that's of considerable concern to people, in this, the British capital, or people who may have visited it.

That radiation trail as well has also taken to the skies and has taken, as you mentioned, an international route.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE (voice over): As two contaminated British planes remain grounded in London and a third in Moscow, it's been confirmed a fourth passenger jet belonging to a Russian airline is now under suspicion. British Airways say more than 2,500 people who flew on these planes have been contacted so far, thousands more could have been exposed.

The British government insists the risk of contamination is low. And reaction has been calm, even among passengers who traveled on some of the flights in question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I went on the 28th, which according to the BA Web site is one of the affected flights. So, yes, I mean, they did have a phone line. I haven't used it yet.

CHANCE: Alexander Litvinenko, a former Russian agent who defected to Britain in 2000, died a slow and painful death after being poisoned with high doses of the radioactive isotope Polonium-210. A fierce critic of the Kremlin, even from his death bed he accused the Russian leadership of having him killed.

A British police investigation has been trying to retrace his last steps. Britain's home secretary spoke to parliament today, a sign of how seriously the government takes this investigation.

JOHN REID, BRITISH HOME SECRETARY: To date, around 24 venues have or are being monitored. And experts have found traces of contamination at around 12 of these venues. Police continue to trace possible witnesses and to examine Mr. Litvinenko's movements at relevant times.

CHANCE: This radioactive trail still being followed in London now appears to have taken a decidedly international turn. Flight connections to Moscow around the time of Litvinenko's poisoning are falling under especially close scrutiny. Police say their investigations are inclusive so far, but the spotlight may fall on two Russians who met Litvinenko on the day he fell sick. Andre Lagavoi (ph), pictured on the left, is a former KGB officer known to have traveled to and from London on the contaminated flights. British officials say Moscow is promising full cooperation. The Russian government denies any involvement in Litvinenko's killing. But friends gathered at the inquest into his death say latest revelations all point to the Kremlin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police is looking at the planes which were flying between London and Moscow. Five days prior, Alexander was contaminated himself. So he couldn't be the source of this radioactivity.

CHANCE: And British officials vow that politics or the niceties of international diplomacy won't stop the police from finding the truth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE: And in a further twist, Michael, to this ongoing spy scandal, it's emerged in Moscow -- it's being reported in the Russian capital, at least, that a former Russian prime minister, Yegor Gaidar, has also fallen ill. And according to his doctors, he's being said to have possibly have been poisoned as well. So that's something which is adding increasing suspicion to this case -- Michael.

HOLMES: Yes. We'll keep an eye on that.

Matthew Chance in London.

Thanks, Matthew -- Colleen.

MCEDWARDS: Well, British Airways has set up a special help line for customers who are trying to get information about the affected flights. We want to pass those numbers on to you now.

Callers in the U.K. can call: 08445 6040171. Now, if you're an international caller and want information, here's the number for you: 44191 211 3690.

And you can always check on the British Airways Web site, of course, to see if your flight is one of the many that are being affected here, if you know anyone who's been flying. That's www.britishairways.com.

Now, British Airways is already trying to cope with calls from thousands of passengers who have been contacting them worried about health risks here. Some 33,000 passengers used these planes over the crucial five-week period that's being looked at here.

CNN's Richard Quest is a frequent traveler with British Airways. And he keeps track of the airline and the airline industry for us and joins us now live from Las Vegas, Nevada.

This is a huge issue, and a huge issue of kind of containing this for British airways, too, right?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's a much bigger issue than you can possibly imagine, yes.

There are 33,000 passengers over 221 flights, but also remember, Colleen, that some of those passengers will have been booked on other airlines. It will have been what we call a co-chair (ph) flight.

So, you've got Cathay Pacific, Iberia, American Airlines. All of these other airlines will have funneled passengers into those crucial flights over that five-week period. Finding those passengers and finding how they actually -- where they are and whether they've been affected, that's going to be the big issue.

MCEDWARDS: The health of the passengers, of course, is obviously the big concern here. But this has been a rough year for British Airways as well, right?

QUEST: There's no question, for British Airways, this is just another -- another bad day of bad news. Think about what they've been through.

They've had the security scare at Heathrow Airport which ground the airline to a halt. They got a nasty rout over whether -- whether staff could wear religious artifacts on their uniforms. They've got a pensions crisis at the moment. They've had strikes in the summer. Add into this a radiation scare on their planes.

You know, Colleen, you know that phrase that they always say when you land, "We know you had a choice of airlines and we thank you for flying us today"?

MCEDWARDS: Yes.

QUEST: Well, In British Airways' case, they will be taking that to heart, because they know they've got competitors on every one of those routes. And let's face it, why would you go British Airways, with all its problems, when there might be a suitable or satisfactory alternative?

MCEDWARDS: Yes. That's what a lot of people are thinking.

Richard Quest, thanks very much for that. Appreciate it, Richard -- Michael.

HOLMES: All right.

Let's turn to the war in Iraq now. With the situation in the country descending rapidly into total chaos, a bipartisan panel in the U.S. is set to recommend a major withdrawal of U.S. troops.

Now, the Iraq Study Group, as it's called, its report won't be released until next week, but "The New York Times" newspaper is reporting some of its suggestions, including a call for U.S. troops to gradually be pulled back into a support role. This report gives no specific timetable for that redeployment, however. It also suggests Iraq's neighbors, Iran and Syria, be brought in on the discussion.

Well, despite the leaked recommendations, the Bush administration is staying firmly on message. In a meeting with the Iraqi prime minister in Jordan, the president dismissed calls for American forces to leave Iraq.

And as Suzanne Malveaux reports, Mr. Bush is still backing a faltering Iraqi leader.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Despite the serious doubts the White House has about Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's abilities to curb the violence in his country, President Bush today gave him a vote of confidence.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's the right guy for Iraq. And we're going to help him.

MALVEAUX: Mr. Bush is facing an increasingly unpopular war, with the new Congress actively seeking exit strategies. So the president is trying to push more responsibility on the Iraqi leader to govern and protect his people. Mr. Bush acknowledged the U.S. could do more to help.

BUSH: Part of the prime minister's frustration is, is that he doesn't have the tools necessary to take care of those who break the law.

MALVEAUX: The president promised more resources to speed up the training of Iraqi security forces, but he flatly refused to commit pulling out U.S. troops, even gradually, as recommended by a bipartisan commission, the Iraq Study Group.

BUSH: I know there's a lot of speculation that these reports in Washington mean there's going to be some kind of graceful exit out of Iraq. We're going to stay in Iraq to get the job done, so long as the government wants us there.

MALVEAUX: Even if that means U.S. troops would have to fight in what some consider a civil war.

BUSH: Killers taking -- taking innocent life is in some cases sectarian. I happen to view it as criminal.

MALVEAUX: Maliki also issued a thinly-veiled warning to his neighbors, Iran and Syria, for any role they may have in supporting the insurgents.

NURI AL-MALIKI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): So everybody who is trying to make Iraq their own influence here on account of the Iraqi people need to recalculate.

MALVEAUX (on camera): As billed, there were no major, bold, new initiatives coming out of this summit, but rather, a recommitment from both leaders to keep plotting ahead.

Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, Amman, Jordan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCEDWARDS: Well, back on the ground in Iraq, a host of Iraqi lawmakers, both Sunni and Shiite, are questioning the prime minister's ability to lead.

Our senior national correspondent, Nic Robertson, joins us now from Baghdad with more on this.

And Nic, there are some serious questions here.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There are indeed some serious questions.

Before Prime Minister Maliki could even get back to Baghdad from Jordan we heard from the party of Muqtada al-Sadr. This is the party that yesterday said they were withdrawing their participation in the government, 30 parliamentarians, six ministers. They said that they were now getting support from other groups, including two leading Sunni political blocs and some other independents.

We talked to one Sunni politician who told us that this alliance had been building for several months. That, in fact, in their opinion, the United States and President Bush should be talking to his alliance, not -- not to Prime Minister Maliki.

What's it's interesting is, this new alliance crosses sectarian lines. It's got the Shia group of Muqtada al-Sadr and these Sunni parties, and that's something new here in Iraq. That it is a big worry for Prime Minister Maliki when he did come back.

One of the first things he did here was to hold a press conference. And during that press conference, he called on Muqtada al-Sadr to reconsider his position.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NURI AL-MALIKI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): The political partnership means commitment, and there is a mechanism to make a decision or express it through the parliament or the government, which the Sadr bloc and other blocs participate in. I hope they reconsider their decision because it doesn't constitute a positive development in the political process. We are looking forward to receiving the whole security portfolio, along with a total sovereignty on our security forces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: Now, Sadr and this new emerging alliance say they won't get involved in the government again. At least Sadr certainly says that, won't get back involved with the government until there's a date set for U.S. troops to be pulled out of Iraq. And the bloc is saying -- the Sunnis and Sadr's group are saying that they now want to reshuffle this particular government.

They're not -- they don't have to exclude Prime Minister Maliki from it, but they want to reshuffle it. And it clearly is sending a very clear message to Prime Minister Maliki that they don't have any faith in him here anymore -- Colleen.

MCEDWARDS: What are the regional concerns here, Nic? Because I know internationally, a lot of people are concerned that if this alliance breaks up or is altered significantly, that this could have an impact even outside of Iraq. Is that fair?

ROBERTSON: Well, there's a very firm belief in the region that -- that a larger war in Iraq could overspill into the region, particularly if U.S. troops are drawn down too greatly or are pulled out of the area. That is a concern.

There's a concern in Iraq by Iraqis and politicians that there's too much interference from outside countries. There's a recognition that there needs to be an involvement of some of those countries -- Iran and Syria, in particular, for there to be stability in Iraq.

And there's concern in Saudi Arabia that the Sunnis don't have a strong enough political voice. That they think that the Sunni rights aren't being respected properly. So, yes, there are very serious regional concerns about what's happening today -- Colleen.

MCEDWARDS: Nic Robertson for us in Baghdad.

Thanks a lot, Nic. Appreciate it.

HOLMES: All right.

A landmark visit by the pope unfolds in Turkey.

MCEDWARDS: Still ahead on YOUR WORLD TODAY, we will go with Benedict XVI as he pays his respects at a famous mosque in Istanbul.

HOLMES: And then to Beirut, where new demonstrations are set to challenge the embattled Lebanese government.

Do stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MCEDWARDS: Welcome back to CNN International.

HOLMES: You're watching YOUR WORLD TODAY. We're bringing CNN's viewers around the globe up to speed on the most important international stories of the day.

Let's do that.

Well, one of those stories is the pope's visit to Turkey. Today, he's in Istanbul, where his itinerary was aimed at bridging religious differences.

Alessio Vinci is traveling with the pontiff, joins us now live from Istanbul.

Alessio, some memorable images we saw today. ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Michael. Benedict XVI made history today here in Turkey, and he did it by becoming the second pontiff ever to walk into a Muslim place of worship. And he did it in Istanbul's magnificent Blue Mosque.

The pope, as is customary in Islamic tradition before entering the building, took off his shoes. He was given a tour by Istanbul's grand mufti (ph) and with whom he paused for what appeared to be a moment of prayer and exchanged gift. At which point, the pope said, "We pray for fraternity and for all of humanity."

The visit was added only at the last moment in the pope's busy schedule. And it is yet another gesture towards the conciliation towards Islam after infuriating much of the Muslim world and many Turks here when back in September he suggested by quoting a medieval emperor that Islam was a violent religion.

The Vatican hopes that these pictures of the pope inside a mosque will replace those of his effigy being burned, broadcast around the Middle East and around the world over and over again back in September when he made those reports.

Now, the pope already defused some of the tensions in recent days ever since he arrived here in Turkey by supporting, first of all, Turkey's bid to join the European Union, but also by praising on several occasions the Turks. But this was a photo opportunity that he could not miss -- Michael.

HOLMES: Hagia Sophia, tell us a little bit more about that particular location, because it's had its controversy.

VINCI: That is correct. Right before walking into the Blue Mosque, the pope was across the street and visited the Hagia Sophia, a beautiful domed compound which was built, first of all, as a church. Then when the Ottoman Turks took over this part of the world, creating the Ottoman Empire, they transformed it into a mosque, and then eventually the founding father of modern Turkey made it into a museum.

The pope, when he was inside there, refrained from any explicit religious act as a respect, of course, for Turkey's secular society, and not to awake any -- all the Ottoman fears that Christians and Christianity wants to reclaim it as a church. And for that reason, by the way, many nationalists are opposed for the pope to visit that. But the protest was very small and contained by security officials. As a matter of fact, the pope didn't go anywhere near those protests -- Michael.

HOLMES: And what about the meeting with the patriarch Bartholomew? That was significant as well.

VINCI: It was significant. As you know, the two churches, 1,000 years ago, more or less, over issues such as theology and who is the boss, basically, the primacy of the pope -- the two leaders prayed together today, St. Andrews, the saint patron of the Christian orthodox around the world. And after the two prayed, the two issued a joint statement, basically calling on the desire for greater religious freedoms, especially for the minorities in this country.

So the pope there used the opportunity of his meeting with the Christian orthodox and patriarch here to also send a clear political message to the church's officials here that while of course he is on a fence-mending mission, he also wants to make sure that the Christians in this country receive the rights that they deserve -- Michael.

HOLMES: All right, Alessio. Thanks very much.

Alessio Vinci there in Turkey.

MCEDWARDS: All right.

Well, the Lebanese prime minister is preparing to address his nation. And we're watching this closely.

Hezbollah calling for a protest. The prime minister really fighting for his political life here.

HOLMES: He absolutely is. More turmoil in the Middle East, as if we needed it.

Let's take a break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And hello, everyone. I'm Tony Harris at the CNN Center in Atlanta.

This just in to CNN. We want to show you some dramatic pictures out of Sacramento, California. Take a look at this right now.

A commuter bus actually on its side right now. The result of a terrible accident, to be sure. These pictures coming to us, an aerial view, from KCRA, our affiliate station there in Sacramento. You can see some emergency personnel on the scene right now standing on that overpass.

Once again, this is a commuter bus that has flipped onto its side. The result of an accident. Live pictures you're looking at right now.

We believe that there are as many as 20 to 30 injuries involved in this accident. Don't know the exact time that this happened, but the accident happened, if you're familiar with this area, at US Route 50 and Jefferson Boulevard. Right there at the off-ramp.

And you can see that there are some emergency personnel on the scene. A huge traffic backup tied to this. And you can imagine what a scene it must have been when the accident happened.

People obviously on the bus, obviously using their cell phones to call for help. And this is the scene that they were reporting, an accident where the bus ended up on its side.

Don't know if it is a case of the driver just losing control of the bus, or if there was some other precipitating event that led to the crash. You see another car there as well. We don't know if that car was involved.

You can see right there in the center of your screen one person being taken -- strapped to that board there, being taken away by an ambulance. As many as 20, maybe as many as 30 injuries connected with this accident. That commuter bus on its side right now.

Sacramento police, certainly highway patrol on the scene as well, trying to offer any aid and comfort and aid in the rescue and -- of these people who are on that bus. Hopefully, most have been moved off of that bus now, on to ambulances, those who need it, and are being transported to local hospitals. But we will keep an eye on this situation.

Now, again this is an accident occurring on US Route 50 and Jefferson Boulevard there in the Sacramento area. Just about 9:30 a.m. local time.

Once again, these pictures from KCRA, our Sacramento affiliate. We'll get more on this and bring it to you as soon as we have it.

In other news now, a promise of support from President Bush to Iraq's prime minister. The two leaders held a summit in Amman, Jordan.

Mr. Bush vowing to help Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki get control of his war-torn country. And they discussed the importance of speeding up training for Iraqi security forces. But President Bush says a so-called graceful exit of U.S. troops won't bring stability to the region.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: My advice is, support reasonable people and reject extremists. Understand that most people want to live in peace and harmony and security. It's very important for the American people to understand that most Muslim mothers want their children to grow up in peace and they're interested in peace.

And it's in our interest to help liberty prevail in the Middle East, starting with Iraq. And that's why this business about a graceful exit just simply has no realism to it at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: The president says a withdrawal of U.S. forces will happen as soon as possible. But right now, he says Iraqi security forces need more training to combat the violence.

In Washington, word that a bipartisan group of powerbrokers has reached agreement on Iraq's strategy. The Iraq Study Group presents its report to President Bush next week. But here's a preview.

CNN has learned the panel will recommend a reduction of U.S. troops that is "gradual but meaningful." And they want that pulldown to begin relatively early in the new year. President Bush has repeatedly vowed that U.S. forces will remain in Iraq until the job is done.

It is name you may not know, but you will be hearing it a lot in the coming days, weeks and months. Iowa governor Tom Vilsack officially kicked off his 2008 presidential bid today.

Vilsack says American needs a president who can bring about bold change and he's the man for the job. Vilsack is the first prominent Democrat to formally jump into the presidential race. He's kicking off the tour early of caucus and primary states, including New Hampshire and South Carolina.

Let's check in now -- well, our friends in the Midwest getting a double shot of winter. The storm expected to dump more than a foot of snow in some places, snow as far south as Oklahoma and Texas.

Other areas could get a mix of snow, sleet and freezing rain, or just rain. The winter storm follows another of that (INAUDIBLE) region, and that one brought ice. A slick coating on roadways made driving extremely dangerous, and the icy buildup on tree limbs and power lines raised concerns about power outages.

Let's get a look at the situation now. OK. We won't check weather with Reynolds Wolf.

(WEATHER REPORT)

(NEWSBREAK)

MCEDWARDS: Well, Prime Minister Al Maliki's title makes him the most powerful man in Iraq, or does it? While he yields his authority from government other leader exercise their power on the streets, and it is a formidable power. Who better to help us sort this out than Michael Holmes, who's in and out of Baghdad all the time for us. You've got a closer look, Michael.

HOLMES: All right, thank you very much, Colleen. Indeed. Things get more and more complicated. Both of the men we're talking about an clerics. Both anti-American. Both have legions of supporters. But while one controls a huge militia and a very powerful bloc in parliament, a key block, the other asserts his influence from exile. Now in just a moment we'll see how Sunni leader Harith Al- Dhari is said to direct much of the insurgency from abroad.

But let's begin with that man, Muqtada Al-Sadr, the young, firebrand Shia cleric threatening to topple the prime minister's government at the moment. Here is senior international correspondent Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): When this man, firebrand Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr speaks, everyone listens. He has the biggest, most volatile private army in Iraq, the Mehdi militia. In fact, if you go on the streets of Baghdad's scrolling slum Sadr City, home to more than 2 million impoverished Shia, Sadr's gunmen control the tight grid of garbage strewn streets.

When U.S. troops arrive, they melt away, warned by lookouts, often kids.

The U.S. military estimates Sadr's army at 7,000. But intelligence experts in the region say it's probably double that, 14,000.

The Mehdi militia is the sharp tip of Sadr's power. His support comes from the slums. Millions of Shias, poorly educated, mainly young, look to him to lead them. When he calls, they all come out.

He has more of the populous following than Iraq's other Shia leader, the reclusive Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. Though Nouri al- Maliki is prime minister, you can say Sadr is king maker. Thirty of Iraq's parliamentarians and six of his government ministers are loyal to Sadr. Without him, al-Maliki would have little, if any power.

Sadr is also part futile lord. He is accused of assassinating his religious rivals and stirring his militia to rampage. His violence did not begin until July 2003, when the U.S.'s Chief in Iraq Paul Bremmer appointed Iraq's first governing council. Sadr didn't make the cut, and since then he has demanded America must get out.

When U.S. troops were preoccupied with fighting in Fallujah two years ago, Sadr saw an opportunity and unleashed his militia men in the south. They took control of several cities. Eventually they backed off.

But soon after, Sadr was back at it. A year into the war, his militia took over a holy shrine. U.S. special forces were deployed to kill him. The operation was called off when Sadr backed down. That's been his tactic -- ratchet up the tension and then let it cool off.

Now, he is going after his biggest target yet, a power play with his deputies threatening to bring down the prime minister's government. What holds U.S. forces back from taking Sadr down now is concern that wouldn't stop the bloodshed and chaos because some of Sadr's commanders are running renegade operations.

Sadr's father, a powerful Ayatollah was murdered by Saddam Hussein. Recently, the son's supporters reenacted the assassination of the father. The goal was to raise Sadr's standing even higher. Compare him to his beloved and martyred father.

(On camera): Sadr has always been a spoiler in Iraq's politics. His endgame appears to be to have him as Iraq's top Shia cleric in a country run on an Iranian style theocracy. The risks he takes to achieve it define his leadership, often appearing reckless, always with a veil threat of violence not far away.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: The other leader we want to focus on today is a wanted man in Iraq. An arrest warrant went out for Harith Al-Dhari two weeks ago. The Shia-led government accuses him of fueling the Sunni insurgency. He says his message is all about peace.

Nic Robertson caught up with the cleric in Jordan, ahead of that U.S.-Iraqi summit.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Jordanian King Abdullah, the man on the left controls all of the television in his country. So it's clear the king wants the Arab world to see he's on message with his guest.

HARITH AL-HDARI, HEAD OF MUSLIM SCHOLARS ASSOC. (through translator): The message is we want peace. We are a peaceful people. We don't hate Americans. All we want is our country secure and stable.

ROBERTSON: Al-Hdari is Iraqi, a respected tribal leader and a Sunni cleric. As for his message of peace, he's fled the country because he's a wanted man there. The Iraqi government says he is behind much of the Sunni terrorism.

I've been granted a rare interview. Al-Hdari normally refuses to meet the Western media. He sees it as agents and a hated military occupation. He wants U.S. troops out.

"Just set a date for withdrawal," he says. "That's all. Then the resistance will stop." Would you talk to American officials?

AL-DHARI (through translator): I'm not talking to American officials, or Bush, unless they agree to withdraw their troops before we meet.

ROBERTSON: Among Iraq's Sunni insurgents al-Dhari has influence because he is a respected cleric and tribal leader. He supports their attacks on U.S. troops and the Iraqi government. He even supports al Qaeda in Iraq, but says he won't tolerate attacks on civilians. Surprisingly, he says, he wants to give the U.S. an easy way out.

AL-DHARI (through translator): They can withdraw in a calm and honorable way. And this is what we want. If the Iraqis see this, they'll respond in a positive way.

ROBERTSON: But as fighting among insurgents and against western troops continue, I asked him what's going to stop the bloodshed when the U.S. troops are gone. He says it will stop, but he offers no promises.

AL-DHARI (through translator): I can't guarantee it. I don't have the material means. I have no real power. I can't. I tell you, I'm incapable. There has to be an Iraqi security force that represents all forces in Iraq, loyal to Iraq.

ROBERTSON (on camera): Which countries should be providing the support?

Al-DHARI (through translator): America's friends in the region and outside the region, they can help.

ROBERTSON: Saudis, Jordanians ... he won't say who. But later suggests some of the old Iraqi Army is ready to come back.

A month ago, al-Dhari met with the King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, another important U.S. ally. And like Jordan, also a majority Sunni country. It seems President Bush and Prime Minister Maliki are being sent a message by the Sunnis of Iraq. Their voice is being drowned out by the fighting.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Amman, Jordan.

HOLMES: A look at two very important men in Iraq these days. And when we come back, two guests will talk further about what next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Welcome back, everyone. Let's continue our discussion about Iraq. For that country to be at peace, it must find a way, obviously, to bridge the sectarian divides we've been discussing, getting insurgents to put down their arms and build a government that represents all interests.

Now, that is indeed, some challenge. We have two guests joining us now to discuss the way forward. Mahmoun Fandy with the International Institute for Strategic Studies joins us from London. And U.S. Republican Senator John Cornyn, currently Chairman of the Armed Services Committee is in Austin, Texas.

Senator, if I can start with you first of all, the study group, according to the "New York Times" is talking about withdrawals. Your thoughts?

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: Well, I think the truth is, we're all talking about withdrawal, the question is whether that withdrawal will be based upon security considerations or based upon domestic politics here in the United States. The survey group is I think is going to perform a useful service by reassuring people that every possible choice has been explored without regard to ideology or partisan concerns and I think that is a useful exercise.

But I don't think they're going to come up with a solution that's going to be easy because I don't think we have any easy answers to this very difficult situation.

HOLMES: One thing nobody talks about when it comes to U.S. troops is a timetable for withdrawal. What do you think -- a year, two years, don't know?

CORNYN: I think a timetable is a mistake based on an arbitrary timeline. I think it has to be based on security situations on the ground.

HOLMES: Which ones?

CORNYN: Well, I think that we have to, my personal belief is that we have not had adequate numbers of American troops there to actually secure locations after we've cleared them. And what's happened is, we've moved on and the insurgents have been able to come back and continue to wreak havoc and I think is going to take a temporary, not an open-ended commitment, but a temporary commitment to surge and show that we're serious about securing Baghdad and let the political institutions work out their differences.

HOLMES: More troops, 30, 40, 50,000.

CORNYN: I think somewhere in the order of 20 to 50,000. I'd like the generals to tell us what they need to actually get the job done. But here again on a temporary basis, no open-ended commitments. And I think the American people won't tolerate it.

HOLMES: It's pretty open-ended now, isn't it? With no timetable for withdrawal, that's open-ended?

CORNYN: Well, it has to be based upon security considerations. The problem is, for America, is that if we leave without a secure Iraq, then al Qaeda will follow us here and we'll see another repetition of the 9/11 attacks. The only question will be whether they use airplanes, or biological, or chemical, or nuclear weapons to kill more Americans and that's part of my concern.

HOLMES: A lot of people in the United States, Americans, and Senators, and members of the House and others as well are saying, it's a civil war, we shouldn't be there. Let's get out and leave it to them to sort out.

CORNYN: Well, that's a semantic game. I don't know. We had our own civil war in America and 600,000 people died. And what I see happening in Iraq doesn't remind me anything of what we saw here when we had a battle between the North and the South over the Union.

HOLMES; But the point about leaving it to the Iraqis now to sort out the mess?

CORNYN: Well, the problem is, the Iraqis may not be able to sort it out just among themselves because we have foreign fighters like al Qaeda in Iraq. We have the Iranians attempting to influence what happens in Iraq for their own purposes and we do in some sense need a regional solution. But I think we'd need first and foremost, to allow the Iraqis a chance to establish a secure environment with our help and then draw down our troops as conditions permit.

HOLMES: Indeed and one final question, if I can, Senator, when I mentioned what a lot of Americans say let's leave it to the Iraqis now. They're fighting each other. Let's leave them to it. A lot of the Iraqis are saying we weren't fighting until the U.S. came here. There wasn't a problem here. There weren't bodies in the streets. Do you think that the U.S. has broken it and now must stay until it is fixed? CORNYN: The reason why Iraqis weren't fighting among themselves before America came there is because Saddam killed or had his boot heel on anyone who challenged his authority. He's killed at least 400,000 of his own people. And we know, of course, he's been tried and found guilty of crimes against humanity.

But the problem we have there now is to allow the Iraqis who demonstrated a real interest in governing themselves by passing a constitution and having two popular elections with great turnouts, that they do aspire to self-determination. And I think they ought to be given a chance and we're trying our best to help them to realize that self-determination.

HOLMES: Good to have you with us. Senator John Cornyn joining us from Texas. Thanks so much.

CORNYN: Thank you.

HOLMES: All right. Let's go to Mamoun Fandy now -- a man who has been on the program more than once. What I want to ask you, Mamoun, first of all, is that question that the U.S. created the mess. I think it's simplistic to say there wasn't fighting before just because of Saddam Hussein. This place has degenerated into farcical level of chaos, do you agree?

MAMOUN FANDY, INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES: Absolutely. I think probably the whole situation now is on the brink of a civil war. The situation has spiraled totally out of control. And this is due to the lack of understanding of the very nature of the very nature of Iraqi society, as well as the broad picture in the region.

Certainly, Iraq now became a battlefield for all kinds of regional players that wanted to test the resolve of the Americans and try to push them out.

And the Iranians ...

HOLMES: Sorry to interrupt, do you think Nuri al-Maliki, we see him meeting with the U.S. president. Interesting that the King of Jordan wasn't in that meeting. Interesting that Iran was nowhere to be seen. of course, Syria -- any of the other major players. Do you think that meeting achieved anything? Is Nuri al-Maliki is running the country?

FANDY: I'm not sure if he does. I think the whole meeting was really to prop up Maliki's control. I think, if you look, Mike, at what happened before Maliki arrived in Jordan, you would see that King of Jordan had met (INAUDIBLE) of the Association of Muslim Scholars, that's mainly the Sunni voice, if you will and met (INAUDIBLE) who is from the Islamic Revolution group, which is a counter-Shia group that al-Maliki is representing.

So there is an attempt, I think, by the Jordanians to create a small conference-like situation where all of the Iraqi factions talk to each other, even including people like Muqtada al-Sadr, where there some national unity government that has some teeth to control the internal situation can emerge.

HOLMES: Do you think that it is possible -- we saw the profiles earlier with Mr. Al-Dhari and on Muqtada al-Sadr and you mentioned Abdul Aziz Al-Hakeem (ph). Is there a chance all of these people can work together -- Sunni and Shia?

It's fascinating what's happening in Baghdad today. Where elements in the Muqtada al-Sadr's bloc in parliament are talking about maybe forming some sort of national front involving Sunnis, Christians and others?

FANDY: Certainly, I think the possibility of all of these groups working together can move the whole situation from a sectarian situation to an alliance of ideas and politics. And if Muqtada al- Sadr would be able to work with Christians and Turkmans and other groups, that's the beginning of the solution.

But, I don't think Muqtada al-Sadr would be able to do that because Muqtada al-Sadr, his whole resume, is really a sectarian resume that's representing Shia interests and has not worked with Sunni groups or with Christians. I think it needs a lot of pressure from regional players, regional sponsors, if you will, of the internal fight inside Iraq. Mainly Syria and Iran and probably other Sunni states in the region.

HOLMES: Understood. Always good to see you, Mamoun Fandy, International Institute for Strategic Studies, thanks so much.

All right, there's a complicated politics ahead, that's for sure. And stark reality on the streets in Iraq -- Colleen.

MCEDWARDS: All right, Michael, thanks very much. We've been focusing a lot on Iraq this week. But, there's another development we want to bring you up to date on. Talks to form a Palestinian national unity government have deadlocked. That's was certainly the message from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas who has been struggling to form a unity government for months now. He made the comment at a joint news conference with visiting U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

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MAHMOUD ABBAS, PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We have made every effort possible. And work with more than one track and on more than one project and plan. But unfortunately, today, we have reached a deadlock. This is very painful to us. Because we know how badly our people suffer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCEDWARDS: Rice again called on Hamas government to change its policies, so much-needed aid could reach the Palestinian people. We're going to take a short break here on YOUR WORLD TODAY but we'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MCEDWARDS: All right. Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY. We'll bring you a few pictures before we go. Wonderful pictures. Just a short time ago. Pope Benedict XVI visiting the famous Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Incredible pictures here.

HOLMES: Spectacular sight. A spectacular mosque and this -- a spectacular image. Islam and Christianity meeting there in one of those -- very significant places of worship.

MCEDWARDS: And the pope saying this visit will help us find together a way of peace for the good of all humanity. That's YOUR WORLD TODAY.

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